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  1. #61
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think I was referring to the mindset where people have dismissed wrongdoings in this life and suffering in this life because they will soon be going to heaven, to the exclusion of investing in the Now. The whole concept of heaven is certainly not part of Jewish culture in the Old Testament, and Jesus specifically said that the Kingdom of God is at hand as soon as you believe... immediately you are part of God's kingdom, and God's kingdom is wherever members of the Body are within the world. Perhaps people are motivated by the fear of others going to hell, but there's still a sense of not waiting for the future but investing in the Now in order to engage others. You feed the hungry, you heal the sick, you love the loveless, etc., all in the now, rather than sitting around and waiting for heaven. Jesus worked tirelessly in the Now, he wasn't just someone who preached the future and talked about life after death, he brought life more abundantly in the present.
    I can dig that. I disagree on some points, but I don't want to delve into it right now. I do think that helping the poor and loving the loveless and healing the sick etc. is a huge part of Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I used to believe that faith didn't mean believing something without proof, but my opinion has changed over the last twenty years -- it exactly means believing something without the ability to "prove" it. If you can prove it, it is no longer faith. But I think we agree on the "blindly" part; faith is not blind at all, it incorporates experience and hope together in order to place one's trust in things that cannot be seen or proven but that still seem believable to the person involved. You feel that the faith is worth taking a risk on because you've come to believe it is true -- or that even if the possibility exists that it might not be true, it's still worth giving your life for.
    Maybe that's what it means now, but I feel that the word the Bible uses is not at all that. In fact, I think in many places in the Bible, it simply means 'believe' most of the time (source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G4102&t=NIV ). I also don't think the Bible implies belief without evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I'm starting to see you and your avatar as a cloud of odor that eminates from trashy threads.

  2. #62
    Senior Member wildflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think I was referring to the mindset where people have dismissed wrongdoings in this life and suffering in this life because they will soon be going to heaven, to the exclusion of investing in the Now. The whole concept of heaven is certainly not part of Jewish culture in the Old Testament, and Jesus specifically said that the Kingdom of God is at hand as soon as you believe... immediately you are part of God's kingdom, and God's kingdom is wherever members of the Body are within the world. Perhaps people are motivated by the fear of others going to hell, but there's still a sense of not waiting for the future but investing in the Now in order to engage others. You feed the hungry, you heal the sick, you love the loveless, etc., all in the now, rather than sitting around and waiting for heaven. Jesus worked tirelessly in the Now, he wasn't just someone who preached the future and talked about life after death, he brought life more abundantly in the present.
    exactly. it really is both. a south african friend of mine reminds me in these discussions that yes for a starving person in africa the hope of heaven really is a blessing but jesus also wants us to give that person a meal and shelter now if possible. jesus preached the gospel--the kingdom of heaven is at hand--and he fed the poor, healed, etc. conservative churches can have a tendency to overemphasize the preaching and neglect the helping of the poor while the liberals are more focused on helping the poor and can tend to neglect sharing the gospel. i think jesus really wants us to do both.



    I used to believe that faith didn't mean believing something without proof, but my opinion has changed over the last twenty years -- it exactly means believing something without the ability to "prove" it. If you can prove it, it is no longer faith. But I think we agree on the "blindly" part; faith is not blind at all, it incorporates experience and hope together in order to place one's trust in things that cannot be seen or proven but that still seem believable to the person involved. You feel that the faith is worth taking a risk on because you've come to believe it is true -- or that even if the possibility exists that it might not be true, it's still worth giving your life for.
    in the hebrew faith has more of a sense of faithfulness or steadfastness and stability whereas in the greek it is more about believing and intellectual assent. again i think God wants both from us. he wants it to permeate our entire beings.

    i have never met anyone who has blind faith but there is always something that has caused the person to believe. a good friend of mine was dating a guy from italy. he told her he had a friend who could talk any christian out of their faith and i think had even done so. she hadn't met him but awhile later he became horribly sick and was in the hospital. the doctors couldn't seem to find any treatment that would help him and things were looking bad. my friend's boyfriend asked her to pray for him. the guy immediately started getting better in the hospital. when he met her much later he said he just knew that her prayers had had an effect on his health.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I'm looking to find joy in my own fortune, rather than in the misfortune of others. I had more respect for Thomas Aquinas than to think he would do the latter, but I am no scholar of religious literature, so I obviously did not know him as well as I thought.
    I dont think what you are looking for joy in has any relevence. If you're admittedly ignorant of Thomas Aquinas then why comment further?

  4. #64
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think what you are looking for joy in has any relevence. If you're admittedly ignorant of Thomas Aquinas then why comment further?
    I was commenting directly on Victor's remark:

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor
    Thomas told me he was looking forward to Heaven. "And why's that?", I asked. And he told me he was looking forward to seeing the suffering souls in Hell.
    I have little respect for anyone who looks forward to the suffering of others. You, with your presumably superior knowledge of Aquinas, have not corrected Victor's statement, so I assume it accurately reflects Aquinas' point of view. In my (partial) ignorance, I had overestimated his compassion.

    What one finds joy in can be quite revealing, so while you may not find it relevant, I do. I also prefer joy to guilt, fear, and self-abasement, an attitude often at odds with many religious establishments.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #65
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I was commenting directly on Victor's remark:

    I have little respect for anyone who looks forward to the suffering of others. You, with your presumably superior knowledge of Aquinas, have not corrected Victor's statement, so I assume it accurately reflects Aquinas' point of view. In my (partial) ignorance, I had overestimated his compassion.

    What one finds joy in can be quite revealing, so while you may not find it relevant, I do. I also prefer joy to guilt, fear, and self-abasement, an attitude often at odds with many religious establishments.
    It's only the beginning. For Saint Augustine taught that heretics should be tortured and they were. And Saint Aquinas followed up by teaching that heretics should be killed, and they were.

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