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  1. #11
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    I can honestly say I haven't known of any devout, Christian young people that seemed preoccupied with Heaven --moreso with contemporary morality. I'm sure they're out there, but I don't think they're common. I think you'll have trouble getting even a handful here with that explicit perspective.
    Ahh, good to know.

  2. #12
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    My values/ beliefs are loosely correlated to Christian values and beliefs because I don't really know another way, it's my original framework, it's very hard to rewire the neurons to think of spirituality in terms of things that don't somehow relate to Christianity. Some days, I guess you could even just call me a Christian. (Yeah, sounds like an oxymoron, Christians can't be Christians on some days.)

    Anyways, I don't take everything so literally and have many thoughts on the matter, including the possibility that your soul on Earth has potential for heaven, purgatory, and hell. I see potential for heaven and hell in people's eyes before me every day. I think that people could possibly have a soul the ability to reach some kind of a salvation/oneness/ near-perfection or deep, endless suffering and pain all while being alive- and that could be heaven and hell. And I'm not thinking of physical perfection vs. suffering, I'm just thinking of that which could happen to ones inner core being, which could potentially be faltered by many of the actions that Christians call "sins" for reasons that it is hard for the human mind to understand. This is not a full blown belief for me. One of many possibilities that I consider on the matter. So the end goal is not "don't sin, follow these rules or you'll go to hell", the goal is to understand what it means for your soul to be left nearly pure at the end of the day.
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  3. #13
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I grew up surrounded by people who attend church every week at least once and will pray at the drop of a hat... I never really hear any of them talk about heaven though the funny thing is that some of them are liberals and some conservatives but they ALL focus on life on earth right now and how they feel that it could be improved for everyone with a dash of God thrown in... no, I never heard any of them talk about heaven though, no matter how old they get... (and I'm a rural midwesterner!)
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  4. #14
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I grew up surrounded by people who attend church every week at least once and will pray at the drop of a hat... I never really hear any of them talk about heaven though the funny thing is that some of them are liberals and some conservatives but they ALL focus on life on earth right now and how they feel that it could be improved for everyone with a dash of God thrown in... no, I never heard any of them talk about heaven though, no matter how old they get... (and I'm a rural midwesterner!)
    Yes! That's exactly how I grew up too. But the line of thought I talked about in the OP is different (and new to me). I'm finding it hard to understand and digest. I had no idea people thought that way.

    I guess one could say that it's impossible to separate God and heaven, if you really think about it, but I don't know. It's all too complicated to me. lol

  5. #15
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Yes! That's exactly how I grew up too. But the line of thought I talked about in the OP is different (and new to me). I'm finding it hard to understand and digest. I had no idea people thought that way.

    I guess one could say that it's impossible to separate God and heaven, if you really think about it, but I don't know. It's all too complicated to me. lol
    that is a strange belief that I don't think that I've ever run across before

    odd to think of what could be separated and what cannot in the world of religious debate... I'm not particularly religious, so it's not something I normally ponder
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #16
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    that is a strange belief that I don't think that I've ever run across before

    odd to think of what could be separated and what cannot in the world of religious debate... I'm not particularly religious, so it's not something I normally ponder
    I'm not religious either and I don't normally ponder it either but sometimes it comes to my attention by other people.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I gotta say that it seems like some Christians live their lives just waiting to die so that they can go to heaven. From what I gather from bible teachings, we're all sinners (and I do agree that no one's perfect) and we walk among our fellow man who are also deprived, all of us living a deprived life here on earth, like we're in the dregs. Our only saving grace is that we can go to heaven when we die, provided that we believe in God and serve him.



    So is that what it's like for people with strong faith? Life on earth just sucks no matter which way you slice it and heaven is what you really look forward to?
    I wouldnt agree, its not that way for Rob Bell or Tolstoy for instance, Tolstoy for definite wouldnt even really be drawn on whether or not he was certain of an afterlife, he said instead that this was not why he choose to exercise an option for Christianity, his motivation was because he couldnt stand the meaninglessness, pessimism and misery of his non-Christian fellows and secularism.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    that is a strange belief that I don't think that I've ever run across before

    odd to think of what could be separated and what cannot in the world of religious debate... I'm not particularly religious, so it's not something I normally ponder
    This sort of thinking isnt reserved to religion though, its evident in politics and money management philosophies too, for instance the bigger the bank account the more things or experiences costing money people have passed up to accumulate that, in politics it could be sacrificing all for a distant promised good times or utopian vision.

  9. #19
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I gotta say that it seems like some Christians live their lives just waiting to die so that they can go to heaven. From what I gather from bible teachings, we're all sinners (and I do agree that no one's perfect) and we walk among our fellow man who are also deprived, all of us living a deprived life here on earth, like we're in the dregs. Our only saving grace is that we can go to heaven when we die, provided that we believe in God and serve him.



    So is that what it's like for people with strong faith? Life on earth just sucks no matter which way you slice it and heaven is what you really look forward to?
    The possibility of eternal rewards in heaven was both carrot and stick in the hands of authoritarian regimes for generations throughout the Christian world. Pacified with promises of the afterlife, the lower classes had no expectation of improving their lot on earth, and were exhorted to mind their place and keep their noses to the grindstone lest their "pride" or "greed" land them in hell.

    I have faith, though I am not Christian, and believe in an afterlife, though not what you or I am describing. I do not call it "heaven", and it is not a goal to be attained at the end of life. It is the simple continuation of the spirit after the demise of the flesh. I see it not as paradise, or a reward, but simply as a different phase of life, offering different opportunities for growth and learning.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #20
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    So is that what it's like for people with strong faith? Life on earth just sucks no matter which way you slice it and heaven is what you really look forward to?
    If "strong faith" = positive life, I tend to see the ones who use heaven as an excuse to not live this life effectively to be the ones with weak faith -- they seem to be the most self-absorbed. The people who I see as having truly strong faith tend to be very focused on doing the right thing now and enduring whatever trials come their way; yes, they believe in heaven after, but it's not like a freebie prize. They want to please God and don't focus on the heaven thing that much.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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