Why don't Christians celebrate Hannukah?

[Lark]

Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

Now there have been heretical movements called "Judaizers" that have tried to align Christian teaching and practice with those of Judaism.


I'm primarily talking about Jewish in the cultural sense, which obviously wouldn't necessarily contradict being Christian. Secular Jews obviously don't adhere much to the religious aspects of Judaism, but primarily identify with the more cultural aspects of being Jewish. Culture and faith often go together.

Jesus's status as messiah or at least a prophetic figure has some advocates among religious Jews, most famous being Martin Buber.

Is that the haisdic Jews? Buber's books focus on that tradition a lot.

There's Jewish humanists (is that what is meant by secular jew?) like Erich Fromm who dont believe in an afterlife, miracles, God in the sense of anything other than a human invented concept or, effectively, anything supernatural who would consider Jesus as a prophet, in the same sense or tradition of other, earlier, prophets. Although I think that those individuals have parted ways from judaism in some sense, at least religiously, if not culturally or ethno-national identity.

The judeo-Christian traditions to me are nonsensical, many of them appear political, especially American ones and their relationship towards Jewish people is at best unflattering, either orthodox Jews consider them gentiles or outsiders in any case anyway or they themselves believe that Jews have a special status only because their final, complete return from diasporia communities will result in the advent of the apocalypse which will end them anyway.

 

[Sniffles]

Would you consider an atheist who celebrates Christmas as a "cultural Christian"?

Perhaps, I know plenty of "cultural Catholics" who are like that.

 

[Lark]

Yeah, Mark (and Matthew) is considered or theorized to somewhat part of "Peter's school of thought". Which isn't the strongly Jewish one (that would be James), but moderate. Peter wasn't exactly orthodox. It was his story that removed strict kosher laws, and James and his cohorts who disputed it a bit. Paul was a later outsider who went full gusto with shedding Judaism. Which is ironic because he was the only orthodox educated Jew of the bunch. He was a Pharisee. Maybe it was his own persecution of Christians that led him later to embrace Gentile ways, as a sort of self-inflicted guilt trip.

This is odd, why is Matthew part of the non-jewish or unjewish innovators?

I've always thought that Matthew and James share certain definite consistency and continuity and also that they are more consistent with major Jewish prophetic traditions and expectations, specifically, Isaiah, Amos or Maccabees.

 

[Sniffles]

Is that the haisdic Jews? Buber's books focus on that tradition a lot.

I do notice that tendency for people associated with that tradition and/or Kaballah to be the most open in trying to incorporate Jesus into the Jewish tradition. Although Maimonides argued that both Christianity and Islam serve God's divine plan in helping to spread the message of Abraham to a wider audience.

Speaking of Kaballah, there is such a thing as "Christian Kaballah".

So the main point here is that no, Jewish and Christian traditions are not mutually exclusive but have interacted with each other on various levels.

 

[Ginkgo]

I guess just because you're Jewish doesn't mean you can't believe Christ is the son of God. Otherwise Jesus would have had some... identity problems.

 

[Lark]

Perhaps, I know plenty of "cultural Catholics" who are like that.

I would not consider celebration of Christmas as "cultural christianity" or "cultural catholicism" unless they where observing religious traditions, say going to mass and observing fasting or attending confession as is tradition, the festival or seasonal/calender date celebrations have a life quite apart from Christianity, they pre-date Christianity and I would suggest post-date it also in what is effectively a post-Christian age or epoch.

 

[Edgar]

Here [MENTION=5398]Edgar[/MENTION],
A Jewish Christian for you. :hi:

[youtube="dEGQkuivGFc"]Jewish Christian[/youtube]

A Furry Christian for you.:hi:

 

[Lark]

I do notice that tendency for people associated with that tradition and/or Kaballah to be the most open in trying to incorporate Jesus into the Jewish tradition. Although Maimonides argued that both Christianity and Islam serve God's divine plan in helping to spread the message of Abraham to a wider audience.

Speaking of Kaballah, there is such a thing as "Christian Kaballah".

So the main point here is that no, Jewish and Christian traditions are not mutually exclusive but have interacted with each other on various levels.

I perhaps am hesitant to consider or incorporate anything from kaballah what so ever because of the profile that it got from certain celebrity followers, like Robbie Williams and Maddona, the trappings of which, little red bracelets etc., made it seem less like a proper spiritual or mystical tradition and more like that of AA's "higher power, whatever you so call it" thinking or Mind, Body and Spirit shopping.

Although that said I do and have read some good Jewish mystical traditions, for instance the legends about the 32 righteous individuals in any generation, an idea which is used by some to account for Jesus and incorporate him within Jewish tradition, without considering him an incarnation of God or the final messiah.

 

[Edgar]

I guess just because you're Jewish doesn't mean you can't believe Christ is the son of God. Otherwise Jesus would have had some... identity problems.

He did. He was both man and God and he was also his own father... or some such thing.

 

[Sniffles]

A Furry Christian for you.:hi:

Behold St. Furrball.

 

[Edgar]

Perhaps, I know plenty of "cultural Catholics" who are like that.

I must say, this new term of "cultural [insert Religion]" to describe someone who does not adhere to that religion is very confusing to me.

 

[KDude]

This is odd, why is Matthew part of the non-jewish or unjewish innovators?

I've always thought that Matthew and James share certain definite consistency and continuity and also that they are more consistent with major Jewish prophetic traditions and expectations, specifically, Isaiah, Amos or Maccabees.

No, I mean Mark is just moderately Jewish (Matthew is a deriative, as you probably know). Still Jewish, but nothing Orthodox. More like intended for a general audience. Although, it does seem like Matthew actually intends to "Jewish-fy" the basic narrative of Mark more. Mark is fast paced, glosses over much, while Matthew takes it's basic form and adds more about prophetical fulfillment. His audience at least seemed to be meant to be acquainted with the prophecies.

 

[Sniffles]

I would not consider celebration of Christmas as "cultural christianity" or "cultural catholicism" unless they where observing religious traditions, say going to mass and observing fasting or attending confession as is tradition, the festival or seasonal/calender date celebrations have a life quite apart from Christianity, they pre-date Christianity and I would suggest post-date it also in what is effectively a post-Christian age or epoch.

Well within Catholicism and most other religious traditions, there strong connections between culture and faith. However, there are those more attached to the culture than the faith, and in fact sometimes could even be hostile to much of the faith but will still defend much of the cultural or social functionalism of it. So that's the kind of paradigm I'm operating under in discerning who would be associated with "cultural christianity".

I perhaps am hesitant to consider or incorporate anything from kaballah what so ever because of the profile that it got from certain celebrity followers, like Robbie Williams and Maddona, the trappings of which, little red bracelets etc., made it seem less like a proper spiritual or mystical tradition and more like that of AA's "higher power, whatever you so call it" thinking or Mind, Body and Spirit shopping.

I agree there's much garbage about Kaballah out there, and this is a classic example where it's nothing but another form of New Age B.S. Unfortunately almost all esoteric and mystical traditions have been corrupted by this trend: from Sufism for Islam or many Christian mystics like Hildegard of Bingen to especially Yoga, Zen, and Taoism. Nevertheless, what I'm talking about is more of a tradition of Christians studying Kaballah and incorporating its teachings and practices into a Christian context that dates from Medieval and Renaissance times.

 

[Lark]

No, I mean Mark is just moderately Jewish (Matthew is a deriative, as you probably know). Still Jewish, but nothing Orthodox. More like intended for a general audience. Although, it does seem like Matthew actually intends to "Jewish-fy" the basic narrative of Mark more. Mark is fast paced, glosses over much, while Matthew takes it's basic form and adds more about prophetical fulfillment. His audience at least seemed to be meant to be acquainted with the prophecies.

Mark's is the earliest or first text if I'm not mistaken, also involving some elements which suggest stories in which he was directly involved, personally I love Matthew's the most, if I was left with Matthew and James as my complete bible then that would suffice, not that the rest of the bible is not important but I believe that the core and crucial teachngs for how to live are in those books.

 

[Lark]

Well within Catholicism and most other religious traditions, there strong connections between culture and faith. However, there are those more attached to the culture than the faith, and in fact sometimes could even be hostile to much of the faith but will still defend much of the cultural or social functionalism of it. So that's the kind of paradigm I'm operating under in discerning who would be associated with "cultural christianity".

I only mention it because I heard a radio piece the other day on the BBC, all to typical of Britain at the moment unfortunately, by someone taking up an everyman stand point indicating that they could cope with a Christmas which is totally devoid of religion but would wish to retain pretty lights, decoration, trees, big meals and gifts. Which to me just puts us back at the point of harvest festival, saturnalia, wintermas or something like that.

I agree there's much garbage about Kaballah out there, and this is a classic example where it's nothing but another form of New Age B.S. Unfortunately almost all esoteric and mystical traditions have been corrupted by this trend: from Sufism for Islam or many Christian mystics like Hildegard of Bingen to especially Yoga, Zen, and Taoism. Nevertheless, what I'm talking about is more of a tradition of Christians studying Kaballah and incorporating its teachings and practices into a Christian context that dates from Medieval and Renaissance times.

Like Enochian magik? Or the lesser and major keys of Solomon? Those things are awesome and intriguing but I'm not sure they provide much of a real guide to spiritual direction.

 

[Sniffles]

I must say, this new term of "cultural [insert Religion]" to describe someone who does not adhere to that religion is very confusing to me.

It isn't really that new, the terms derive from 19th century theology, and one of the classic treatments of the issue was by H. Richard Niebuhr in Christ and Culture, examining the different perspectives from which religion and culture interact. "Cultural Christian" as we commonly understand the term to mean would fall under the category of "Christ as Culture":

Supporters of this option, so-called cultural Christians, claim that Christ is to be understood as the highest aspiration and fulfillment of culture. In this way it is possible to affirm both Christ and culture and to deny any necessary opposition between the two....

....The approach inevitably leads to accommodationism, the attempt to reconcile Christianity with what appear to be the greatest achievements of a culture.

Thus the early church had its Hellenizers and Judaizers of the Gospel and Gnostics who reconciled Christianity with their mystical philosophy. The medieval Abélard attempted to reduce Christianity to practical morality and Christ to a great moral teacher. During the Enlightenment, Locke, Kant, and Jefferson all tried to isolate a scientifically and philosophically reasonable Christianity, and sometimes even excised elements of the faith which could be believed only on the basis of special revelation. Contemporary manifestations of accommodationism abound in the pronouncements of mainline Protestantism and the World Council of Churches.27

http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar26.htm

And so on.

 

[Sniffles]

I only mention it because I heard a radio piece the other day on the BBC, all to typical of Britain at the moment unfortunately, by someone taking up an everyman stand point indicating that they could cope with a Christmas which is totally devoid of religion but would wish to retain pretty lights, decoration, trees, big meals and gifts. Which to me just puts us back at the point of harvest festival, saturnalia, wintermas or something like that.

This sounds like Dawkins's claims on the matter, about how he despises religion but still likes to hear Christmas carols and whatnot.

Like Enochian magik? Or the lesser and major keys of Solomon? Those things are awesome and intriguing but I'm not sure they provide much of a real guide to spiritual direction.

I don't think it's necessarily of that kind, or at best plays a minor role.

 

[Edgar]

It isn't really that new, the terms derive from 19th century theology, and one of the classic treatments of the issue was by H. Richard Niebuhr in Christ and Culture, examining the different perspectives from which religion and culture interact. "Cultural Christian" as we commonly understand the term to mean would fall under the category of "Christ as Culture":


And so on.

But in that case, the Jewish equivalent would be "Judaism as culture" and Judaism rejects Christ as Messiah.
So we're back at "Jewish Christian" being an oxymoron.

 

[Sniffles]

But in that case, the Jewish equivalent would be "Judaism as culture" and Judaism rejects Christ as Messiah.
So we're back at "Jewish Christian" being an oxymoron.

Not really, for to be a Jewish Christian in the sense I mean could fall under the category of "Christ as the transformer of culture", where culture is transformed and baptised. In that case, culturally one remains Jewish but is religiously Christian.

 

[Edgar]

Not really, for to be a Jewish Christian in the sense I mean could fall under the category of "Christ as the transformer of culture", where culture is transformed and baptised. In that case, culturally one remains Jewish but is religiously Christian.

>>I mean could fall under the category of "Christ as the transformer of culture", where culture is transformed and baptised.
>>culture is transformed and baptised.
>>baptised.

...how is that different from becoming a Christian?