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  1. #51
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    John 10:22-23 does describe Jesus observing Hanukkah.
    You mean a guy who never actually met Jesus described Jesus observing Hanukkah.
    Then again Jesus has been seen 'observing' crucifixion and gruesome death hasn't become a christian hobby. Wait, I m unjustly dismissing the middle ages & a worrying number of saints. Why aren't more christians trying for martyrdom? isn't that what J would do.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
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    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  2. #52
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    John 10:22-23 does describe Jesus observing Hanukkah.
    That is the "obscure" reference I mentioned above. On Hanukkah He went to the temple and preached about His divine origin, and then had to book out of there before the Jews stoned him.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #53
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    You mean a guy who never actually met Jesus described Jesus observing Hanukkah.
    Then again Jesus has been seen 'observing' crucifixion and gruesome death hasn't become a christian hobby. Wait, I m unjustly dismissing the middle ages & a worrying number of saints. Why aren't more christians trying for martyrdom? isn't that what J would do.
    Because Christianity is not Islam. Jesus's martyrdom is not intended as a recommendation, but as a way to salvation through His resurrection which was made possible through God's grace and forgiveness. In other words, Jesus suffered and died so Christians don't have to. By the same token, if you are not a Christian then your fate is to suffer the death of sinners.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #54
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Because Christianity is not Islam. Jesus's martyrdom is not intended as a recommendation, but as a way to salvation through His resurrection which was made possible through God's grace and forgiveness. In other words, Jesus suffered and died so Christians don't have to. By the same token, if you are not a Christian then your fate is to suffer the death of sinners.
    And you do realize how completely bonkers it sounds, right?
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #55
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    I think I figured out the source of confusion. The word "Jewish" can be used to describe either ethnic background or religious affiliation, which isn't the case for other ethnicities. So, for example, "Egyptian Christian" is a valid term, but if you say "Muslim Christian", that would be nonsensical.

    Would you agree?
    Exactly; Christians identifying as Jewish is the same as atheists identifying as Jewish.

    Incidentally, I've often referred to myself as a 'cultural Christian' or 'cultural Protestant'.

    Edit: I've also known Christian families with menorahs (but no presents), celebrating Hannukah casually as a compatible subsidiary holiday, or as a statement by non-denominational Protestant families wishing to get back in touch with the Jewish roots of their religion. Heck, my totally non-Jewish mother even used to recieve a Messianic jewish magazine.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    And you do realize how completely bonkers it sounds, right?
    I'm not the knee-jerk type who says "religions are so full of shit". I'm open to exploring religious speculations. But the fact that religious conversions and deep religious feelings are very real psychological events should tell you that religion is practical, even if it is "bonkers" and "full of shit."

    Your response will be the laughing emote.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #57

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    A Jewish Perspective on the New Testament, a relevant article on our thread topic.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  8. #58
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    Some thoughts on some of the topics involved:

    1. "Jews Don’t Believe in Jesus": To say Jews don’t believe in Jesus is a serious misconception as well as a gross overstatement. Jews have always believed in Jesus. In fact, in the beginning, it was only Jews who believed in him, and today, there are probably more Jewish believers in Jesus than ever before.

    Who is a Jew? If you give the traditional answer, namely you are Jewish if your mother is Jewish, you really haven’t answered anything. What makes your mother Jewish?

    Is being a Jew simply a religious matter? If so, are atheistic Jews still Jews? Are humanistic Jews still Jews? And what of Reform Jews who deny that the Torah is literally the word of God and who don’t believe in a physical resurrection or a literal Messiah? Are they still Jews? Is being a Jew simply a matter of ethics? Is so, is an unethical corrupt Orthodox rabbi still a Jew? Is being a Jew a matter of solidarity with the people of Israel? Then what of antinationalist Israelis? Is being a Jew simply a matter of ethnicity? If so, then one’s religious beliefs can’t change one’s Jewishness.

    So again, who is a Jew? It’s important not to use a double standard here. For example, if one is a secular Jew and one does not live by the Torah or the Rabbinic traditions, how can one tell a Messianic Jew that he/she is not Jewish because he/she believes in Jesus? You might say, “but you have joined another religion!” They answer: No, I’m following the religion of the Scriptures. And according to the Torah, the issue is not one of “different religion” but of lifestyle and faith. God is not so much concerned with what “religion” we identify ourselves with – the word religion doesn’t even occur once in the entire Hebrew scriptures – as much as with what we believe and how we live. In fact, from a Biblical viewpoint, being an atheist or a materialist or a sensualist constitutes infinitely more of a departure from the faith than entering into disputes about who the Messiah is.

    Even Orthodox Jews have no problem recognizing Jews who believe in Jesus as Jews, targeting them specifically in their outreach efforts (they certainly aren’t investing the kind of time and effort in reaching Gentile believers.) In the end, the real question is not whether Jews who follow Jesus are still Jewish. Rather, the crucial question is whether Yeshua is the Messiah predicted by Moses and the prophets.

    2. "Christianity is a Gentile religion": Christianity, or belief in Jesus as the Messiah, is not a gentile faith, it is a Jewish faith with Gentile followers. It might help to remember that the word Christian comes from the word Christ, which is derived from the word christos, the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word mashiach (Messiah.)

    Yeshua is the fulfillment of the New Covenant, prophesied in Jeremiah 31, which God made with Israel. Gentiles are welcome to be grafted into the covenant per Romans 11:17. But the covenant was made with Israel, and is still with Israel. God used Israel to reach the world. That is why he calls her the light of the nations. This is why I have such gratitude to the Jewish people.

    Yeshua was Jewish, still is Jewish, and had all Jewish disciples, who wrote a Jewish book (the New Testament.) The early followers of Yeshua were all Jewish, and were recognized as Jewish by the establishment at the time, who called them “Nazarenes” indicating they were acknowledged as a Jewish sect following the teachings of Jesus and believing him to be the Jewish Messiah. It was only after time and the Gentile believers began to outnumber the Jewish believers that the Jewish religious establishment became increasingly hostile.

    To assert that ethnic Jews who observe Jewish religious customs, holy days, and teachings, and follow the very Jewish teachings of a Jewish man believing he is the Jewish Messiah aren’t Jewish in faith is to assert an argument that lacks cohesion. Being a faithful Jew and believing in Jesus the Jewish Messiah are totally compatible. Again, the crucial (and real) question is whether Yeshua is the Messiah predicted by Moses and the prophets.

    Oh, and to address the thread’s original question, I’m a follower of Jesus and I celebrate Hannukah.

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