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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

    Now there have been heretical movements called "Judaizers" that have tried to align Christian teaching and practice with those of Judaism.


    I'm primarily talking about Jewish in the cultural sense, which obviously wouldn't necessarily contradict being Christian. Secular Jews obviously don't adhere much to the religious aspects of Judaism, but primarily identify with the more cultural aspects of being Jewish. Culture and faith often go together.

    Jesus's status as messiah or at least a prophetic figure has some advocates among religious Jews, most famous being Martin Buber.
    Is that the haisdic Jews? Buber's books focus on that tradition a lot.

    There's Jewish humanists (is that what is meant by secular jew?) like Erich Fromm who dont believe in an afterlife, miracles, God in the sense of anything other than a human invented concept or, effectively, anything supernatural who would consider Jesus as a prophet, in the same sense or tradition of other, earlier, prophets. Although I think that those individuals have parted ways from judaism in some sense, at least religiously, if not culturally or ethno-national identity.

    The judeo-Christian traditions to me are nonsensical, many of them appear political, especially American ones and their relationship towards Jewish people is at best unflattering, either orthodox Jews consider them gentiles or outsiders in any case anyway or they themselves believe that Jews have a special status only because their final, complete return from diasporia communities will result in the advent of the apocalypse which will end them anyway.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Would you consider an atheist who celebrates Christmas as a "cultural Christian"?
    Perhaps, I know plenty of "cultural Catholics" who are like that.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Yeah, Mark (and Matthew) is considered or theorized to somewhat part of "Peter's school of thought". Which isn't the strongly Jewish one (that would be James), but moderate. Peter wasn't exactly orthodox. It was his story that removed strict kosher laws, and James and his cohorts who disputed it a bit. Paul was a later outsider who went full gusto with shedding Judaism. Which is ironic because he was the only orthodox educated Jew of the bunch. He was a Pharisee. Maybe it was his own persecution of Christians that led him later to embrace Gentile ways, as a sort of self-inflicted guilt trip.
    This is odd, why is Matthew part of the non-jewish or unjewish innovators?

    I've always thought that Matthew and James share certain definite consistency and continuity and also that they are more consistent with major Jewish prophetic traditions and expectations, specifically, Isaiah, Amos or Maccabees.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Is that the haisdic Jews? Buber's books focus on that tradition a lot.
    I do notice that tendency for people associated with that tradition and/or Kaballah to be the most open in trying to incorporate Jesus into the Jewish tradition. Although Maimonides argued that both Christianity and Islam serve God's divine plan in helping to spread the message of Abraham to a wider audience.

    Speaking of Kaballah, there is such a thing as "Christian Kaballah".

    So the main point here is that no, Jewish and Christian traditions are not mutually exclusive but have interacted with each other on various levels.

  5. #25
    Ginkgo
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    I guess just because you're Jewish doesn't mean you can't believe Christ is the son of God. Otherwise Jesus would have had some... identity problems.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Perhaps, I know plenty of "cultural Catholics" who are like that.
    I would not consider celebration of Christmas as "cultural christianity" or "cultural catholicism" unless they where observing religious traditions, say going to mass and observing fasting or attending confession as is tradition, the festival or seasonal/calender date celebrations have a life quite apart from Christianity, they pre-date Christianity and I would suggest post-date it also in what is effectively a post-Christian age or epoch.

  7. #27
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Here @Edgar,
    A Jewish Christian for you.

    [youtube="dEGQkuivGFc"]Jewish Christian[/youtube]


    A Furry Christian for you.

    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I do notice that tendency for people associated with that tradition and/or Kaballah to be the most open in trying to incorporate Jesus into the Jewish tradition. Although Maimonides argued that both Christianity and Islam serve God's divine plan in helping to spread the message of Abraham to a wider audience.

    Speaking of Kaballah, there is such a thing as "Christian Kaballah".

    So the main point here is that no, Jewish and Christian traditions are not mutually exclusive but have interacted with each other on various levels.
    I perhaps am hesitant to consider or incorporate anything from kaballah what so ever because of the profile that it got from certain celebrity followers, like Robbie Williams and Maddona, the trappings of which, little red bracelets etc., made it seem less like a proper spiritual or mystical tradition and more like that of AA's "higher power, whatever you so call it" thinking or Mind, Body and Spirit shopping.

    Although that said I do and have read some good Jewish mystical traditions, for instance the legends about the 32 righteous individuals in any generation, an idea which is used by some to account for Jesus and incorporate him within Jewish tradition, without considering him an incarnation of God or the final messiah.

  9. #29
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I guess just because you're Jewish doesn't mean you can't believe Christ is the son of God. Otherwise Jesus would have had some... identity problems.
    He did. He was both man and God and he was also his own father... or some such thing.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  10. #30
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    A Furry Christian for you.

    Behold St. Furrball.

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