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Why don't Christians celebrate Hannukah?

Edgar

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Not really, for to be a Jewish Christian in the sense I mean could fall under the category of "Christ as the transformer of culture", where culture is transformed and baptised. In that case, culturally one remains Jewish but is religiously Christian.

>>I mean could fall under the category of "Christ as the transformer of culture", where culture is transformed and baptised.

>>culture is transformed and baptised.

>>baptised.


...how is that different from becoming a Christian?
 
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Sniffles

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>>I mean could fall under the category of "Christ as the transformer of culture", where culture is transformed and baptised.
>>culture is transformed and baptised.
>>baptised.

...how is that different from becoming a Christian?

It isn't any different. They're Jews who become Christian, but maintain Jewish customs that don't contradict Christian teachings. Does that make sense? Kinda like how Germans maintained Yule trees, but they were baptised into Christmas trees. Or how Egyptian(Coptic) Christians still mummify the dead, to preserve the body for its resurrection on the last day.
 

Edgar

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It isn't any different. They're Jews who become Christian, but maintain Jewish customs that don't contradict Christian teachings. Does that make sense? Kinda like how Germans maintained Yule trees, but they were baptised into Christmas trees. Or how Egyptian(Coptic) Christians still mummify the dead, to preserve the body for its resurrection on the last day.

I think I figured out the source of confusion. The word "Jewish" can be used to describe either ethnic background or religious affiliation, which isn't the case for other ethnicities. So, for example, "Egyptian Christian" is a valid term, but if you say "Muslim Christian", that would be nonsensical.

Would you agree?
 
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Sniffles

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I think I figured out the source of confusion. The word "Jewish" can be used to describe either ethnic background or religious affiliation, which isn't the case for other ethnicities. So, for example, "Egyptian Christian" is a valid term, but if you say "Muslim Christian", that would be nonsensical.

Would you agree?
Indeed there is that confusion, since being Jewish is both a culture and a religion, or "ethno-religious" community so to speak. Kinda like how the Amish are is one way to think about it.

Now as for "Muslim Christian" - that's an interesting discussion in itself. Is it entirely nonsense? I would say no, not in certain contexts, but one has to be careful how one proceeds from there. I would say from a mainly esoteric conception of the convergences of various spiritual paths, and noting this connection in relationship to Islam and Christianity, you would be onto something. Part of Sufism(which is Islam's mystical tradition) teaches that truth is found in all religions, including Christianity. Jesus is held up as an honoured prophet within the Islamic tradition, and Muslims even believe in Christ's second coming. Muhammed himself held Christians in high regard, as noted in his letter to St. Catherine's Monastery which states that no Muslim is to disrespect the Christian tradition and anybody who does is not a true Muslim.

So if one wants to talk about the convergence of Christianity and Islam on the deepest levels as teaching the same truth, then one could speak of being a "Christian-Muslim".
 
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Sniffles

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This brings up the example of Abhishiktananda (Henri Le Saux), a French Benedictine monk who travelled to India and studied the Hindu teachings of the Advaita Vedanta, and later on described himself as a "Hindu-Catholic" of sorts, teaching the ultimate unity of truths between the two traditions.
 

Falcarius

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A Jewish rebellion, which Hannukah essentially is, has next to nothing to do about Jesus' godliness.:rly???:
 

Mal12345

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A Jewish rebellion, which Hannukah essentially is, has next to nothing to do about Jesus' godliness.:rly???:

Yes, I fail to see the relevance of Hanukkah to Christianity. There just isn't any. But I'm certain that if Jesus had been described in the Bible as celebrating Hanukkah, it would have become a Christian holiday.
 
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Sniffles

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Yes, I fail to see the relevance of Hanukkah to Christianity. There just isn't any. But I'm certain that if Jesus had been described in the Bible as celebrating Hanukkah, it would have become a Christian holiday.
John 10:22-23 does describe Jesus observing Hanukkah.
 

wildflower

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Jews believe that Messiah will bring peace on earth, not peace in the afterlife (as what Christians believe Jesus did). Hence, if a person believes in Jesus being the Messiah that person ceases to be Jewish (in a religious sense).

[MENTION=9214]KDude[/MENTION] made some great comments about this and i'd add that what jesus gives us is eternal life but that life starts here, now on earth and continues on into the afterlife. unfortunately, modern day christianity has lost a lot of its jewishness but there has been a movement in recent years that is helping to bring some of that focus back to the church by focusing more on earthly matters like helping the poor and social justice issues, which in some sectors of the church have been grossly ignored. of course jesus spent a good bit of his time dealing with temporal matters like feeding people, healing their diseases and casting out demons.

All the "Jews for Jesus" stuff is a variation of evangelizing techniques designed to convert Jews to Christianity. Anyway, long story short, if you believe Jesus to be the Messiah, you are Christian.

from what i've read on their site they don't seem to see it that way. they do believe jesus is their awaited messiah. i can see how to a jew it would appear that they are just converting people to christianity though.

When Christians started to evangelize to non-Jews, they adopted pagan holidays as Christian holidays so as to make the conversions easier.

some things in pagan cultures were "kosher" for christians to adopt and some things weren't. ;)

i have heard christians refer to non-religious jews as "cultural jews" because they still retain their jewish ethnicity. do jews use the term "cultural jews" at all?
 

EcK

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John 10:22-23 does describe Jesus observing Hanukkah.
You mean a guy who never actually met Jesus described Jesus observing Hanukkah.
Then again Jesus has been seen 'observing' crucifixion and gruesome death hasn't become a christian hobby. Wait, I m unjustly dismissing the middle ages & a worrying number of saints. Why aren't more christians trying for martyrdom? isn't that what J would do.
 

Mal12345

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John 10:22-23 does describe Jesus observing Hanukkah.

That is the "obscure" reference I mentioned above. On Hanukkah He went to the temple and preached about His divine origin, and then had to book out of there before the Jews stoned him.
 

Mal12345

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You mean a guy who never actually met Jesus described Jesus observing Hanukkah.
Then again Jesus has been seen 'observing' crucifixion and gruesome death hasn't become a christian hobby. Wait, I m unjustly dismissing the middle ages & a worrying number of saints. Why aren't more christians trying for martyrdom? isn't that what J would do.

Because Christianity is not Islam. Jesus's martyrdom is not intended as a recommendation, but as a way to salvation through His resurrection which was made possible through God's grace and forgiveness. In other words, Jesus suffered and died so Christians don't have to. By the same token, if you are not a Christian then your fate is to suffer the death of sinners.
 

EcK

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Because Christianity is not Islam. Jesus's martyrdom is not intended as a recommendation, but as a way to salvation through His resurrection which was made possible through God's grace and forgiveness. In other words, Jesus suffered and died so Christians don't have to. By the same token, if you are not a Christian then your fate is to suffer the death of sinners.

And you do realize how completely bonkers it sounds, right?
 

lowtech redneck

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I think I figured out the source of confusion. The word "Jewish" can be used to describe either ethnic background or religious affiliation, which isn't the case for other ethnicities. So, for example, "Egyptian Christian" is a valid term, but if you say "Muslim Christian", that would be nonsensical.

Would you agree?

Exactly; Christians identifying as Jewish is the same as atheists identifying as Jewish.

Incidentally, I've often referred to myself as a 'cultural Christian' or 'cultural Protestant'.

Edit: I've also known Christian families with menorahs (but no presents), celebrating Hannukah casually as a compatible subsidiary holiday, or as a statement by non-denominational Protestant families wishing to get back in touch with the Jewish roots of their religion. Heck, my totally non-Jewish mother even used to recieve a Messianic jewish magazine.
 

Mal12345

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And you do realize how completely bonkers it sounds, right?

I'm not the knee-jerk type who says "religions are so full of shit". I'm open to exploring religious speculations. But the fact that religious conversions and deep religious feelings are very real psychological events should tell you that religion is practical, even if it is "bonkers" and "full of shit."

Your response will be the laughing emote.
 

Mia.

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Some thoughts on some of the topics involved:

1. "Jews Don’t Believe in Jesus": To say Jews don’t believe in Jesus is a serious misconception as well as a gross overstatement. Jews have always believed in Jesus. In fact, in the beginning, it was only Jews who believed in him, and today, there are probably more Jewish believers in Jesus than ever before.

Who is a Jew? If you give the traditional answer, namely you are Jewish if your mother is Jewish, you really haven’t answered anything. What makes your mother Jewish?

Is being a Jew simply a religious matter? If so, are atheistic Jews still Jews? Are humanistic Jews still Jews? And what of Reform Jews who deny that the Torah is literally the word of God and who don’t believe in a physical resurrection or a literal Messiah? Are they still Jews? Is being a Jew simply a matter of ethics? Is so, is an unethical corrupt Orthodox rabbi still a Jew? Is being a Jew a matter of solidarity with the people of Israel? Then what of antinationalist Israelis? Is being a Jew simply a matter of ethnicity? If so, then one’s religious beliefs can’t change one’s Jewishness.

So again, who is a Jew? It’s important not to use a double standard here. For example, if one is a secular Jew and one does not live by the Torah or the Rabbinic traditions, how can one tell a Messianic Jew that he/she is not Jewish because he/she believes in Jesus? You might say, “but you have joined another religion!” They answer: No, I’m following the religion of the Scriptures. And according to the Torah, the issue is not one of “different religion” but of lifestyle and faith. God is not so much concerned with what “religion” we identify ourselves with – the word religion doesn’t even occur once in the entire Hebrew scriptures – as much as with what we believe and how we live. In fact, from a Biblical viewpoint, being an atheist or a materialist or a sensualist constitutes infinitely more of a departure from the faith than entering into disputes about who the Messiah is.

Even Orthodox Jews have no problem recognizing Jews who believe in Jesus as Jews, targeting them specifically in their outreach efforts (they certainly aren’t investing the kind of time and effort in reaching Gentile believers.) In the end, the real question is not whether Jews who follow Jesus are still Jewish. Rather, the crucial question is whether Yeshua is the Messiah predicted by Moses and the prophets.

2. "Christianity is a Gentile religion": Christianity, or belief in Jesus as the Messiah, is not a gentile faith, it is a Jewish faith with Gentile followers. It might help to remember that the word Christian comes from the word Christ, which is derived from the word christos, the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word mashiach (Messiah.)

Yeshua is the fulfillment of the New Covenant, prophesied in Jeremiah 31, which God made with Israel. Gentiles are welcome to be grafted into the covenant per Romans 11:17. But the covenant was made with Israel, and is still with Israel. God used Israel to reach the world. That is why he calls her the light of the nations. This is why I have such gratitude to the Jewish people.

Yeshua was Jewish, still is Jewish, and had all Jewish disciples, who wrote a Jewish book (the New Testament.) The early followers of Yeshua were all Jewish, and were recognized as Jewish by the establishment at the time, who called them “Nazarenes” indicating they were acknowledged as a Jewish sect following the teachings of Jesus and believing him to be the Jewish Messiah. It was only after time and the Gentile believers began to outnumber the Jewish believers that the Jewish religious establishment became increasingly hostile.

To assert that ethnic Jews who observe Jewish religious customs, holy days, and teachings, and follow the very Jewish teachings of a Jewish man believing he is the Jewish Messiah aren’t Jewish in faith is to assert an argument that lacks cohesion. Being a faithful Jew and believing in Jesus the Jewish Messiah are totally compatible. Again, the crucial (and real) question is whether Yeshua is the Messiah predicted by Moses and the prophets.

Oh, and to address the thread’s original question, I’m a follower of Jesus and I celebrate Hannukah. :D
 
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