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  1. #11
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I've met plenty. Some were standard Protestants, while others formed their own denominations.. "Messianic" is what it's called. Although, they're Protestants, more or less.
    Jews believe that Messiah will bring peace on earth, not peace in the afterlife (as what Christians believe Jesus did). Hence, if a person believes in Jesus being the Messiah that person ceases to be Jewish (in a religious sense). All the "Jews for Jesus" stuff is a variation of evangelizing techniques designed to convert Jews to Christianity. Anyway, long story short, if you believe Jesus to be the Messiah, you are Christian.

    They just keep the Jewish culturalism flavor to their lives. I wonder why that even stopped. The first Christians were this way. In the New Testament, it was one of the more hotly debated subjects between James, Peter, and Paul on whether Christians could even be Gentiles. Now it's the other way around.
    When Christians started to evangelize to non-Jews, they adopted pagan holidays as Christian holidays so as to make the conversions easier.

    If you think about it, "Jews for Jesus" is the same approach. Keep the old traditions, just add Jesus into the mix.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Jews believe that Messiah will bring peace on earth, not peace in the afterlife (as what Christians believe Jesus did). Hence, if a person believes in Jesus being the Messiah that person ceases to be Jewish (in a religious sense). All the "Jews for Jesus" stuff is a variation of evangelizing techniques designed to convert Jews to Christianity. Anyway, long story short, if you believe Jesus to be the Messiah, you are Christian.
    Ah, but the early Christians barely talked of afterlife. They said the "Kingdom of Heaven is upon you". Over and over again. Jesus himself would say that people of "this generation" would see his kingdom come to fruition. Whether he was mistaken is another matter, but it wasn't just heaven he talked about.

    He also said it was a "kingdom within you" however - which meant there was a dual spiritual meaning - but it was very much something he advised to work towards in this life. He said "Don't look here or there. Do not listen when they say Come, the kingdom is over there.' The kingdom of God is within you."

    The early Christians also set themselves up against early powers, claiming their King was greater than Caesar. They literally believed this.. that they were part of a new kingdom.... which, in turn, got them killed. They weren't just a religious nuisance. They were a political nuisance (as were other Jewish factions). And they didn't exactly welcome that death. Various leaders like Peter and Paul expressed a lot of grief, telling their followers that they wish to be with them. They weren't in any hurry to get to heaven.

  3. #13
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Ah, but the early Christians barely talked of afterlife. They said the "Kingdom of Heaven is upon you". Over and over again. Jesus himself would say that people of "this generation" would see his kingdom come to fruition. Whether he was mistaken is another matter, but it wasn't just heaven he talked about.
    Sounds like the Jews who believed Jesus to be the Messiah actually jumped the gun (as per Jewish beliefs anyway), but instead of admitting they jumped the gun, they became Christians instead.

    Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia about cognitive dissonance:

    The Belief Disconfirmation Paradigm
    Dissonance is aroused when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in misperception or rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others to restore consonance.
    An early version of cognitive dissonance theory appeared in Leon Festinger's 1956 book, When Prophecy Fails. This book gave an inside account of the increasing belief which sometimes follows the failure of a cult's prophecy. The believers met at a pre-determined place and time, believing they alone would survive the Earth's destruction. The appointed time came and passed without incident. They faced acute cognitive dissonance: had they been the victim of a hoax? Had they donated their worldly possessions in vain? Most members chose to believe something less dissonant: the aliens had given earth a second chance, and the group was now empowered to spread the word: earth-spoiling must stop. The group dramatically increased their proselytism despite the failed prophecy.
    [12]
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  4. #14
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

    Now there have been heretical movements called "Judaizers" that have tried to align Christian teaching and practice with those of Judaism.

    Hence, if a person believes in Jesus being the Messiah that person ceases to be Jewish (in a religious sense).
    I'm primarily talking about Jewish in the cultural sense, which obviously wouldn't necessarily contradict being Christian. Secular Jews obviously don't adhere much to the religious aspects of Judaism, but primarily identify with the more cultural aspects of being Jewish. Culture and faith often go together.

    Jesus's status as messiah or at least a prophetic figure has some advocates among religious Jews, most famous being Martin Buber.

  5. #15
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Sounds like the Jews who believed Jesus to be the Messiah actually jumped the gun (as per Jewish beliefs anyway), but instead of admitting they jumped the gun, they became Christians instead.
    Perhaps. Who's to say who is right. I mean, perhaps the Jews got it wrong.. it's in their own messianic texts that state things like "He was led like a lamb to the slaughter". Perhaps they built up too strong of a warlord image, and not enough of the sacrificial imagery. Or maybe they're all wrong.

    In any case, some of the more sympathetic people to Jesus' movement seemed to be confused as well. John the Baptist could be considered another faction of the time.. like a grass roots one. Once John was imprisoned though, it's said he heard news of Jesus' actions around Palestine and sent messengers to him. And asked, "Are you really the one, or should I give up and look elsewhere". Because at first, John had the same warlord image it seems. He thought the Messiah would come and burn everything down. Jesus sent messengers back and didn't give him a straight answer. He said "The sick are healed, the poor have good news preached to them, and blessed is the one who isn't offended by me." No hellfire, no swords shoved into Roman guts.. in fact, he was friendly to Romans too. Which also pissed people off.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    Just curious. Isn't Christianity based off Judaism? Why would Hannukah be mutually exclusive?
    Because the life and ministry of Jesus and the acts of the apostles represent a definite trend away or break with those traditions, Islam shares more of a continuity or more in common with judaism, ironically, than Christianity, being a religion which branches out from judaism and judaic Christianity.

    Pauline Christianity in particular is non-judaic, some Jewish scholars would suggest it could even be considered anti-jewish (not anti-semitic which is a different matter), although those same scholars would take the same view of Mathew and James, the two authors included within most Christian canonical bibles, both Roman Catholic and Protestant, which Christian scholars would consider most closely approximating to judaic tradition.

    Some historians would consider Pauline Christianity also to be influenced by Roman traditions, the Roman tradition of overwritting earlier beliefs, something which is in evidence when you see some of the statues in ancient roman structures which have been taken over as Christian churches, such as the Patheon in Rome, those statues where at a time, some of them, representing different deities or histories than what they now do. The date of Christmas in the calender has as much to do with the appropriation and transformation of traditions, such as Saturnalia (the birth of the unconquerable sun, which became the unconquerable son), as an accurate dating of Christ's birthday.

  7. #17
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I'm primarily talking about Jewish in the cultural sense, which obviously wouldn't necessarily contradict being Christian. Secular Jews obviously don't adhere much to the religious aspects of Judaism, but primarily identify with the more cultural aspects of being Jewish.
    Would you consider an atheist who celebrates Christmas as a "cultural Christian"?
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  8. #18
    Ginkgo
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    Because not all Christians are that rich.

  9. #19
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Yeah, Mark (and Matthew) is considered or theorized to somewhat part of "Peter's school of thought". Which isn't the strongly Jewish one (that would be James), but moderate. Peter wasn't exactly orthodox. It was his story that removed strict kosher laws, and James and his cohorts who disputed it a bit. Paul was a later outsider who went full gusto with shedding Judaism. Which is ironic because he was the only orthodox educated Jew of the bunch. He was a Pharisee. Maybe it was his own persecution of Christians that led him later to embrace Gentile ways, as a sort of self-inflicted guilt trip.

  10. #20
    Sniffles
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    Here @Edgar,
    A Jewish Christian for you.

    [youtube="dEGQkuivGFc"]Jewish Christian[/youtube]

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