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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Sack man*
    Dark "fairy tales" haven't survived so well in English-speaking cultures. I certainly heard plenty of talk about the boogeyman (spelling seems to vary by region) from other children growing up, and have only recently heard of krampus. I think if instructive fairytale via happy figures is justifiable, then scary fairytales are fair game too. There are plenty of fairy tales like Hansel & Gretel that are pretty dark without being scarring. My mother's family told me the story of La Llorona when I was much older, as well as a comparable equivalent to Bigfoot, the Chupacabra.



    I don't intend to lie to my kids about mythical figures, but I'll share lots and lots of imaginative stories. I like history. I like folklore. I love the art of storytelling! Imagination is good. But I'm not keen on perpetuating a lie. I don't believe it is very harmful, but I don't think it's very helpful either. If my significant other insists on doing it, I'll probably relent given the preponderance of it in our culture. It's nearly impossible to swim against the tide. I do slightly resent the fact that if I don't wish to engage in this form of culturally-accepted mass-propagandation, the responsibility will lie with my child to keep their opinions to themselves lest they be considered disruptive and come home with a note pinned to their shirt from teacher. It seems indicative of a greater attitude in western culture with valuing pleasant over truthful, especially with children. I think I read somewhere that this saccharine infantilization of young people is a holdover from the Victorian and Edwardian periods.

    I also find that there is a cultural conflation of 1) promoting imagination & creativity, and 2) convincing children fictitious things are real. I believe they are totally separate endeavors by virtue of being able to do one, without the other.

    I think the good press of the Magic Trinity (Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy) in English-speaking societies is strictly pervasiveness and popularity on account of the excuse for material acquisition and spending (many of us are capitalist countries after all). If telling children fictions to fuel their imagination and keep them in line was purely a philosophical consideration, we'd have a lot more 5 year olds running around with a fear of Zeus and a love of water sprites.

    I've also noticed that some people, like Jennifer's family, view the discovery of the lies as a kind of rite of passage for children... a part of the growing up process, and they make a game out of it. This definitely happened with two of my brothers who thought it was great fun to try and "catch our parents in the act." At this point the deception seems to shift from imaginative to a game of wits... can or can't the children outsmart their parents?
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Some or all of the things you describe may not or are not fantasy.

    Anyway, a scientific pioneer had something good to say about this:



    http://www.bartleby.com/3/1/16.html
    I beg to differ.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  3. #13
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    lying to your kids in this sick society, nothing new. Lie to your kids about santa, about the easter bunny, about the tooth fairy. Get them all stupid on fictional bullshit so they actually might beleive the religion they learn in school. Jesus is as fake as santa. Everybody is retarded. i dont care what people lie or don't lie about
    1+1=3 OMFG

  4. #14
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Dark "fairy tales" haven't survived so well in English-speaking cultures. I certainly heard plenty of talk about the boogeyman (spelling seems to vary by region) from other children growing up, and have only recently heard of krampus.
    Interesting how similar they are. And I thought they were more common in US. Good for you all.
    I think if instructive fairytale via happy figures is justifiable, then scary fairytales are fair game too. There are plenty of fairy tales like Hansel & Gretel that are pretty dark without being scarring. My mother's family told me the story of La Llorona when I was much older, as well as a comparable equivalent to Bigfoot, the Chupacabra.
    Yeah, these are harmless imo. I guess it can be entertaining in this case...more or less like a Lord of the Rings story made real.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  5. #15

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    1a) Were you convinced by your elders that fictitious characters and/or events were real, as a child?

    Yeah.

    1b) What were they?

    Santa, Tooth Fairy and that a little man is in the radio.

    1c) From what age till when?

    9?

    1d) How did you find out the truth?

    Someone mentioned it and I asked. The radio guy I figured out myself through a method I like to call deduction.

    2a) Do you intend to perpetuate the stories? (Or have you already?)

    Yes, I have.

    2b) Why or why not?

    It is a fun thing. Like magic and mystery.

    3a) Can this caliber of "fantasy fun" be taken too far with children?

    I suppose that would depend on how far you pushed the concept of good.

    3b) If so, how?

    Defining good as cleaning the entire house daily seems too far.

  6. #16
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    1a) Were you convinced by your elders that fictitious characters and/or events were real, as a child?

    Yes, I was. I believed them as a kid, and later on put pieces together that made me realize they were fake on my own. I wasn't particularly upset about knowing the truth. My sister was though.

    1b) What were they?

    Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Leprechauns, etc. I don't count 'ghosts', since I do find those to be real to this day.

    1c) From what age till when?

    Oh.. I'd say from a small child until about the age of 7ish..

    1d) How did you find out the truth?

    I found gifts under my parent's bed one year before christmas, marked from Santa himself later on. Easter bunny seemed a no-brainer after that, etc.

    2a) Do you intend to perpetuate the stories? (Or have you already?)

    Yes. But I take the approach that my friend has taken with her son... That these are spirits, not actual entities. That 'anyone' can be Santa.. it is a concept, that we've given a picture so that we can better identify with it. Which I think is what it is in the first place..

    2b) Why or why not?

    Is there no magic anymore in the world? I loved the possibility of there being magic.. It didn't bother me that the entities weren't ACTUAL real ones, but the idea of it being possible is still something child-like.. it's a moment you can only have in childhood.

    3a) Can this caliber of "fantasy fun" be taken too far with children?

    I think it is taken too far when people are terribly rude about it.. Kids bullying kids when they find out they still believe in santa on the playground.. And parents being so obscenely harsh about the holiday season and trying to force the issue after a child has discovered Santa to not a live being instead of explaining a more logical approach.

    My youngest sister took it, for a while, as betrayal that Santa wasn't real. She REALLY wanted to believe in him, and ignored signs of otherwise long after they manifested. She thought were a bunch of liars, and threw a huge fit over it and tried to ruin christmas. She was manipulating my mother to feel guilty about lying.. I wasn't having it and told her she was selfish and blind if she couldn't see that Santa is a real thing.. he's just not a real guy. The spirit of giving to the good and being rewarded is a very real one, and she's just being selfish for trying to guilt trip my mother otherwise. I also find that to be an uglier side of it all.

    My mother was trying to create magic.. and she was trying to take it negatively in what ever way she could.
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  7. #17
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munchies View Post
    lying to your kids in this sick society, nothing new. Lie to your kids about santa, about the easter bunny, about the tooth fairy. Get them all stupid on fictional bullshit so they actually might beleive the religion they learn in school. Jesus is as fake as santa. Everybody is retarded. i dont care what people lie or don't lie about
    Have you ever lied before in your lifetime? Or do you find the idea of any lie, ever, to be a sickening, grotesque concept?

    You say you don't care about what others lie about or not.. but clearly you mentioned the concept to be sickening.. so you do care at least a bit.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  8. #18
    NPcomplete
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    1a) Were you convinced by your elders that fictitious characters and/or events were real, as a child?
    1b) What were they?

    Not really. I'm pretty sure my parents tried to tell me stories about Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Boogeyman etc but I probably didn't show any interest and they didn't push any further. My uncle, on the other hand, tried to convince me of other stories - mummies walking and chilling around the Valley of the Kings and the Mayan pyramids, vampires, ghosts, zombies, werewolves etc. I was more fascinated by the darker fantasy than the less dark ones.

    1c) From what age till when?
    1d) How did you find out the truth?

    I was probably around 5 or 6 when my uncle told me those stories. I found out the truth when I repeated the stories to my parents and they laughed. When I learnt how to read and look for stuff in the encyclopedia, I started checking all the stories anyway.

    2a) Do you intend to perpetuate the stories? (Or have you already?)
    2b) Why or why not?


    If I ever have kids, I'm not sure what I'll do. I'll probably tell them variations of Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy stories. I don't think I'll tell them the scary stories though. I wouldn't want to deal with crying and nightmares. :P

    3a) Can this caliber of "fantasy fun" be taken too far with children?
    3b) If so, how?

    It could have negative consequences if taken too far. Fear can develop into something much bigger in later years.
    Last edited by NPcomplete; 12-24-2011 at 05:27 PM. Reason: unsatisfactory wording...

  9. #19
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    1a) Were you convinced by your elders that fictitious characters and/or events were real, as a child?

    Sort of. I wasn't really that forcefully convinced though.

    1b) What were they?

    Mainly Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy

    1c) From what age till when?

    For Santa - early as I can remember until my parents started needing my help wrapping presents "from Santa" when I was 18-19.

    Tooth fairy - the time during which I lost my teeth

    1d) How did you find out the truth?

    I had pretty strong evidence between age 8-11 finding thing like the "Santa" signature in my mom's handwriting, and people up wrapping presents at 3am on the 25th. But since 6 or 7 I was already kind of a Santa agnostic. I asked a ton of questions and didn't get satisfactory answers. I understood the sheer improbability of flying reindeer and one person on a sleigh delivering presents in the billions. (Yes, I thought of time warps by about age 11 but by then I had all those more obvious clues). I thought it was obvious that Santa existed as a concept of the "power of the Christmas spirit" and not necessarily as a literal being. An allegory, as I am able to label it now.

    But I don't remember ever getting upset or cynical about it... I soon realized that Santa as a concept was a much cooler thing than what the literal Santa would have to be, and it gave me a little more respect for my parents because of seeing how they must do all sorts of secret wonderful stuff for us without even needing appreciation for it. I felt a little sad for them that they could never be properly appreciated for "Santa's" part of the work. Well, until I was about 17 and looked them in the eyes and said "Thank you, Santa" and they had me help in the 3am wrapping the next year

    The tooth fairy... I was skeptical of her from the start because the whole thing seemed too creepy to be actually true


    2a) Do you intend to perpetuate the stories? (Or have you already?)

    Well, I sort of perpetuated the stories with my little sister. My parents wanted her to believe so whenever my sister asked about it I just nodded my head and talked about how Santa maybe uses rockets and time warps as his "magic"

    If I were to ever have kids, I don't intend on feeding them the stories as truth, or telling them they are not true, but simply as awesome stories that stretch their sense of fantasy, and when it does come up when they enter school I would want them to make up their own mind about it.

    2b) Why or why not?

    See 3b.

    3a) Can this caliber of "fantasy fun" be taken too far with children?

    Yes

    3b) If so, how?

    A lot of children end up taking these sorts of things very seriously and very literally, and can end up becoming either more blindly unquestioning because of things being explained away by magic, or go exploring into everything looking for proof of it until they eventually have to be told that it was "just made up." Either way it can be a lot of unnecessary grief and sorrow when the view they are so convinced of is shattered. It's taken too far when adults are excessively crafting a reality where things they themselves think are imaginary exist, and convincing kids to not question lots of different things because of magic, or raising things to such a level that when they stop believing they stop having faith in everything and everyone, creating a dangerous "society and even the people I'm closest to lie to me about everything so I'll just do whatever I want without caring of the consequences" mindset in some people.

    But again, I actually like these fictional characters as concepts of the spirit of holidays and occasions and think it can be good for kids to have a good dash of stories and a tiny dash of spirit in their lives.

  10. #20
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Sounds like somebody didn't get what they wanted for Christmas.

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