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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Lol, you're a mind reader. That actually sparked this train of thought and started reminded me of my own experiences.
    Speaking of which, if these kids are gotten hold of by religious groups with their own agenda and start crying 'suppressed religious freedom', I'm gonna scream.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  2. #12
    Sniffles
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    There's both private and public aspects to any geniune spiritual tradition, and you can't just focus on one end of the spectrum.

  3. #13
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Before I start, I'm semi-spirtual/religious myself, but my "prayers" are private (if you can call them that... I'd call them comments and conversations to a god I don't even know is listening or cares to listen). I understand prayer. What I don't understand is the need for it be public for some people. Is this type related? Or at least, extroverted?

    Is this type related? Or Am I Evil?
    It is certainly not evil. It is probably extraverted, and the way in which one acts upon one's beliefs is probably more type-related than the beliefs themselves. There is a vast gulf between totally private, individual prayer and extraverted, public prayer. It is a small group of people who know each other well and have established some spiritual commonality (not unanimity - everyone is different). This can be associated with a church, but needn't be. I have such a group, for instance, and find it immensely helpful both to ping ideas off others, as well as simply to celebrate together with compatible people.

    Yes, we will learn from and with others, but ultimately each of us must walk his/her own, individual path. Lark explains this well below.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Prayer and spirituality are by nature individual, I know that islam has attempted to bind believers in submission as a single heart and mind but I feel that is an error to even attempt such a thing, there needs to be shared things in a religion to allow for the transmission of learning and norms between generations but fundamentally it is an individual thing and there cant be any Borg like unison of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Anyway, the entire witnessing thing and having to "share your faith" is a very extroverted thing. I think relationships and connections are good, it's a valuable thing to have; and i think sometimes introversion becomes an excuse for cowardice in terms of not taking a stand on something one claims to believe (it's easy to sit back and not contribute anything, which isn't the core of Christianity); but a lot of the demands and assumptions were unnecessarily imposing on introverts. I don't think faith has to be as extroverted as those flavors of the church made it out to be.
    It is one thing to stand up for one's convictions. This is simply avoiding hypocrisy and being true to oneself. Foisting your beliefs on others, however (e.g. evangelization and proselytizing) is another matter entirely. I find it fundamentally disrespectful to assume that your religion is better than someone else's, and rude and patronizing to tell them so. (Not saying you do this, Jennifer: just using your comment as a springboard.)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Before I start, I'm semi-spirtual/religious myself, but my "prayers" are private (if you can call them that... I'd call them comments and conversations to a god I don't even know is listening or cares to listen). I understand prayer. What I don't understand is the need for it be public for some people. Is this type related? Or at least, extroverted?

    As for worship, I don't participate. I remember when I first started believing in Christianity, I had a neighbor who kept insisting I go to her church. I didn't like her church. I didn't like any churches, tbh. Some either bored me, creeped me out, or I conflicted with people there. She kept on saying I couldn't "grow" in faith without "fellowship". Like, this was an integral part of the whole deal. On my end, I didn't like the idea. It's like I signed up for something and didn't read the "small text" at the bottom of the contract. "Fellowship"? This sucks. Is this type related? Or Am I Evil?
    Fellowship is cool.

    My prayers are private and if someone asks, I'm happy to pray with them even though I feel shy about it.

    (I don't think fellowship with others is required for faith to grow.)

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Avoiding hypocrisy and being true to oneself. Foisting your beliefs on others, however (e.g. evangelization and proselytizing) is another matter entirely. I find it fundamentally disrespectful to assume that your religion is better than someone else's, and rude and patronizing to tell them so. (Not saying you do this, Jennifer: just using your comment as a springboard.)
    That is why I was always torn about doing it -- I felt like I had no choice because the faith as I understood it at the time demanded it, but it offended me on some level, and especially the way my peers handled it -- they were not trying to be disrespectful, but the whole thing involved just showing up at someone's door to try to argue them into believing in Christianity, and every social interaction ended up being a form of conscious witnessing, rather than just listening and learning and enjoying each other where each was at in their own lives. It just did not sit right with me.

    So I was kind of a closet sympathizer... I'd rather talk to the Muslims and Jews and Hindus and learning something new, than try to override their own belief systems.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Senior Member wildflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Yeah, I was kind of relieved at a certain point when I came across a book of writings from the "Desert Fathers" (appeared to be "Mothers" too). Some of these people were contemporaries of Augustine, Jerome.. This goes way back. Like 3rd and 4th century. These people, while devout, had a certain disdain for "city churches" and "city life" in general. The same thing was going on even then, where some thought it was unnecessary to be part of the public church. Anyone who's nostalgic about the "past" and the "good ole days" of Christianty should read some of this.

    Needless to say, they were the beginnings of different monastic traditions. They weren't officially recognized and integrated until much later, but the practice has always been there.


    Not to say I want to be a monk though.
    i have a book on the desert mothers. very cool stuff. yeah, evangelical churches especially do seem to be geared for extroverts. i don't know if you're aware but there is a whole neo-monastic movement happening currently. as jennifer said christianity does have a strong communal focus based on the trinity. i think there are a lot of other options besides the typical potluck type of church out there though such as: quaker groups, you could just go to a home group or even a house church, neo-monastic stuff, get a spiritual director, 24-7 prayer where people take shifts praying, walk to emmaus, etc. tbh, i don't think one will thrive spiritually doing it alone but it can be challenging to find a place where you fit.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    public praywer and worship is a joke, for the weak and feeble minded. It's all conformism to an unconcious level. Just like when Kim Jon died, everyone cried, were they really sad? what is sad? Im pretty sure a lot of people cried with fear they would die if they didnt lol. Same thing with religion, you dont pray you go burn in the firy depths of hell until the clock of infinity wears out
    1+1=3 OMFG

  8. #18
    Senior Member Turtledove's Avatar
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    I do not know if this is of any interest to anyone, but at the church I go to we actually have a 24 hour prayer chain. We (the individuals that make up the congregation) have been doing this since the 60s. Of course there may have been where the chain has broken, but we still do what we can. So we have people on prayer shifts. Some split it up to 15 to 30 minutes. Some pray 3 hours on a certain month or week. Some come together to pray on Saturday evenings. We also started this service around January where we have musicians lead us at a certain time in worship everyday except on Fridays. It's really nice, but it is not necessarily prayer. It usually varies on what day or hour it is on how many people are there. Also depends on what's going on.

    How we pray doesn't truly matter. Some of us meditate, some of us talk to the Lord, and some of us buck and hollar. But those who are more, or desire to be, mature in prayer has a method of prayer that is based on the tabernacle plan of the Old Testament that is married to the Lord's Prayer of the New. We take each piece of furniture to represent and/or foreshadow a certain thing as we pray. For example, the the altar of sacrifice represents repentance and the table of shewbread represents our prayers for our religious leaders. The ark is the pinnacle of where one gets close to God. It's really interesting.
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  9. #19
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turtledove View Post
    I do not know if this is of any interest to anyone, but at the church I go to we actually have a 24 hour prayer chain. We (the individuals that make up the congregation) have been doing this since the 60s. Of course there may have been where the chain has broken, but we still do what we can. So we have people on prayer shifts. Some split it up to 15 to 30 minutes. Some pray 3 hours on a certain month or week. Some come together to pray on Saturday evenings. We also started this service around January where we have musicians lead us at a certain time in worship everyday except on Fridays. It's really nice, but it is not necessarily prayer. It usually varies on what day or hour it is on how many people are there. Also depends on what's going on.
    Sounds a lot like the practice of perpetual adoration in Catholic tradition.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Turtledove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Sounds a lot like the practice of perpetual adoration in Catholic tradition.
    Really? That is very interesting!
    Save Thundercats 2011 petition. Because we do what we can. HO!!!:
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