Is Atheism good?

[Beargryllz]

It helps me by giving me hope that my life is not just a program that simply acts according some comands given by the physical body. It gives me hope that I won't die and everything will finish just like some useless body.

Why does it give you hope? Does immortality appeal to you? Is it something you strive for?

 

[redacted]

I don't understand why do you consider that this question leads to regress? I find it more of a qustion that leads to others without any king of regress or progress.

"Infinite regress" is a term that means any answer to a question leads to the same question. For example, the question "what caused the beginning of the universe?" leads to infinite regress because if we say "[arbitrary thing] caused the beginning of the universe," we have to ask "what caused the beginning of [arbitrary thing]?" To answer that, we can say "[arbitrary thing #2] caused the beginning of [arbitrary thing]," but then we have to ask "what caused the beginning of [arbitrary thing #2]?" etc. etc.

When you substitute "God" for one of the arbitrary things above, it doesn't help you answer the question of the beginning of the universe at all. Because there's always the next step in the infinite regress.

That's why I conclude that the entire question is pointless -- there will never be an answer that breaks the loop. The question itself is the problem, since it's set up as a paradox, just like the Pinocchio example I listed in my last post.

It helps me by giving me hope that my life is not just a program that simply acts according some comands given by the physical body. It gives me hope that I won't die and everything will finish just like some useless body.

Well this right here is the difference between you and me. Being just a program is actually comforting to me -- it makes the universe into something neat and tidy in my mind. If I were something "more" than a program (whatever that means), it would mean out of the billions of galaxies and billions of stars in our galaxy and millions of species on earth, there's this one weird physical phenomenon that somehow breaks the pattern of the rest of the universe. Not only does that seem absurdly unlikely, but it seems completely narcissistic as a species, and not questioning the obvious biases involved in that conclusion is a huge mistake.

I just can't see this kind of belief as anything but a fairy tale. It's like one of those crazy widow characters in a movie that keeps saying to herself, "George will be home any minute," but George actually died 12 years ago. Believing that we are special things in the universe seems just about as crazy, but since so many people are in the same kind of denial at the same time, it's less obvious.

 

[entropie]

It helps me by giving me hope that my life is not just a program that simply acts according some comands given by the physical body. It gives me hope that I won't die and everything will finish just like some useless body.

And what makes you think that an Atheist doesnt believe as well ? Its not your God he believes in, it could be just another idea. He could for example belief in his own strength to make the World a better place so not everyone has to run around and hope for Death until he goes to heaven. What if he belives that the greatest sense he can create for himself in life is making sense out of life and passing this wisdom along to future generations ?

You christians sometimes remind me of nazi Germany. Its either one does belief in your God or one is a senseless automaton who has no brain and whose soul will be lost eternally. I mean really, dont you think that we have survived this kind of thinking for years by now ? Dont you rather think that true meaning in life lies in the versatility of things one can belief in rather than belief in one sole God ?

I am not against the community christianity gives, I am sure many people like that and that it gives hope and shelter to those people. But I dont like this fundamental undertone the american church has mitigated into. This tone like "either you are with us or you are against us". You really should think about that, cause I promise you in the hand, if you dont: it will turn out bad for you in the end.

 

[Kraska]

How many cycles of living across time and space does alchemical transformation create the creator who no longer partakes of the illusion within the illusion of the illusion?

What?

 

[Kraska]

Why does it give you hope? Does immortality appeal to you? Is it something you strive for?

It looks to me that when you think about immortality you think about immortality on Earth. That would be a living hell. To belive in an afterlife means to belive that after psysical death you go to a place where there in no hatred not greed nor arogance. Where there are no people starving while other have billions. Where there is genuine, true love not the interested, perverted one we have here.

 

[Kraska]

"Infinite regress" is a term that means any answer to a question leads to the same question. For example, the question "what caused the beginning of the universe?" leads to infinite regress because if we say "[arbitrary thing] caused the beginning of the universe," we have to ask "what caused the beginning of [arbitrary thing]?" To answer that, we can say "[arbitrary thing #2] caused the beginning of [arbitrary thing]," but then we have to ask "what caused the beginning of [arbitrary thing #2]?" etc. etc.

When you substitute "God" for one of the arbitrary things above, it doesn't help you answer the question of the beginning of the universe at all. Because there's always the next step in the infinite regress.

That's why I conclude that the entire question is pointless -- there will never be an answer that breaks the loop. The question itself is the problem, since it's set up as a paradox, just like the Pinocchio example I listed in my last post.



Well this right here is the difference between you and me. Being just a program is actually comforting to me -- it makes the universe into something neat and tidy in my mind. If I were something "more" than a program (whatever that means), it would mean out of the billions of galaxies and billions of stars in our galaxy and millions of species on earth, there's this one weird physical phenomenon that somehow breaks the pattern of the rest of the universe. Not only does that seem absurdly unlikely, but it seems completely narcissistic as a species, and not questioning the obvious biases involved in that conclusion is a huge mistake.

I just can't see this kind of belief as anything but a fairy tale. It's like one of those crazy widow characters in a movie that keeps saying to herself, "George will be home any minute," but George actually died 12 years ago. Believing that we are special things in the universe seems just about as crazy, but since so many people are in the same kind of denial at the same time, it's less obvious.

Well, if you feel good about following the flock and follow a pre-set pattern then it's your choice. However to me it look like a teenager mentality.
You see most teenager go to clubs and discos while ignoring school just because they want to be part of the gang. They are afraind that doing something different will make them some kind of weirdos.
This is exactlly what I read in you post.

 

[Kraska]

And what makes you think that an Atheist doesnt believe as well ? Its not your God he believes in, it could be just another idea. He could for example belief in his own strength to make the World a better place so not everyone has to run around and hope for Death until he goes to heaven. What if he belives that the greatest sense he can create for himself in life is making sense out of life and passing this wisdom along to future generations ?

You christians sometimes remind me of nazi Germany. Its either one does belief in your God or one is a senseless automaton who has no brain and whose soul will be lost eternally. I mean really, dont you think that we have survived this kind of thinking for years by now ? Dont you rather think that true meaning in life lies in the versatility of things one can belief in rather than belief in one sole God ?

I am not against the community christianity gives, I am sure many people like that and that it gives hope and shelter to those people. But I dont like this fundamental undertone the american church has mitigated into. This tone like "either you are with us or you are against us". You really should think about that, cause I promise you in the hand, if you dont: it will turn out bad for you in the end.

Just a second there. Christians don't say that if you don't belive in God as we do you are an sensless automaton. That's a medieval mentality. People are much more open minded today. You can call it God, Allah, Shiva, Krishna or whatever. You can pray at Jesus's picture, at Allah's name or at some statue, it doen't matter. Christians, at least in Europe, are not as devoted to the church, I mean we belive in God or some kind of force beyong our reach, we belive that we won't simply disappear after death, we go to church on Sunday only if there is time.
God comes in different names and formes and if some tell you that's not true and only his ideea of God is the right one, he is either idiot or a sectant.

Now, I've never been to USA but as much as I understood from what you said, the american church adopted a medieval mentality. That really surprises me considering that USA is one of the most developed countries on earth. However the american church doesn't represent the christian community, it's only a part of it that mitigated into the wrong ideea. Looks more like an institution for propaganda rather than a religios one.

You need to stop generalizing everything.

 

[redacted]

Well, if you feel good about following the flock and follow a pre-set pattern then it's your choice. However to me it look like a teenager mentality.
You see most teenager go to clubs and discos while ignoring school just because they want to be part of the gang. They are afraind that doing something different will make them some kind of weirdos.
This is exactlly what I read in you post.

I was an atheist before it was cool!

(No, seriously, though, I was an atheist as a preschooler; I just didn't know the term yet.)

Also, many atheists would use the same argument against religious people. I don't. Because I don't base my opinions on popular ideas...I don't mind if my opinions happen to match others, though. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

 

[entropie]

Just a second there. Christians don't say that if you don't belive in God as we do you are an sensless automaton. That's a medieval mentality. People are much more open minded today. You can call it God, Allah, Shiva, Krishna or whatever. You can pray at Jesus's picture, at Allah's name or at some statue, it doen't matter. Christians, at least in Europe, are not as devoted to the church, I mean we belive in God or some kind of force beyong our reach, we belive that we won't simply disappear after death, we go to church on Sunday only if there is time.
God comes in different names and formes and if some tell you that's not true and only his ideea of God is the right one, he is either idiot or a sectant.

Now, I've never been to USA but as much as I understood from what you said, the american church adopted a medieval mentality. That really surprises me considering that USA is one of the most developed countries on earth. However the american church doesn't represent the christian community, it's only a part of it that mitigated into the wrong ideea. Looks more like an institution for propaganda rather than a religios one.

You need to stop generalizing everything.

you said in your earlier quote to me that not believing in something would mean your body was just a random interconnection serving no purpose and that you wouldnt want that. I told you that this maybe exactly what I want and belief in because it is the truth. you want to give your life a meaning after death. i dont consider myself at all to be so important that my life needs any meaning at all.

if christians are as educated as you say, why dont you accept atheism ? I mean this whole institution is not different from a star trek convention. the latter one just believes in a different thing and doesnt walk around the world picking fights with anyone who is not with them.

Generalizations are the only thing that is intresting. you cant say that you are a good thief or a bad thief, you are a thief thats all there is to it. the multiple dimensions that lie in between again is just human made bullshit to smooth their consciencse so they dont feel too guilty.

 

[Kraska]

I was an atheist before it was cool!

(No, seriously, though, I was an atheist as a preschooler; I just didn't know the term yet.)

Also, many atheists would use the same argument against religious people. I don't. Because I don't base my opinions on popular ideas...I don't mind if my opinions happen to match others, though. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

I never knew atheism is cool. I always perceived it as a different ideology.
What exactlly do you base your ideeas one?

 

[Kraska]

you said in your earlier quote to me that not believing in something would mean your body was just a random interconnection serving no purpose and that you wouldnt want that. I told you that this maybe exactly what I want and belief in because it is the truth. you want to give your life a meaning after death. i dont consider myself at all to be so important that my life needs any meaning at all.

if christians are as educated as you say, why dont you accept atheism ? I mean this whole institution is not different from a star trek convention. the latter one just believes in a different thing and doesnt walk around the world picking fights with anyone who is not with them.

Generalizations are the only thing that is intresting. you cant say that you are a good thief or a bad thief, you are a thief thats all there is to it. the multiple dimensions that lie in between again is just human made bullshit to smooth their consciencse so they dont feel too guilty.

Why don't you belive your life is important? Every life is important.
And if you think you're not important why do you take all the crap this world offers?

Just because some idiots don't accept atheism it doesn't mean that all the christians are like that.

Generalizations not only that are not intresting they are dangerous. Not all the christians are close minded, not all the arabs are terrorists and not all the american are fat (no offence meant). Generalizing brings hatred and conflicts between people.

Life is not always black and white. Sometimes colors are involved too.

 

[entropie]

Why don't you belive your life is important? Every life is important.
And if you think you're not important why do you take all the crap this world offers?

Just because some idiots don't accept atheism it doesn't mean that all the christians are like that.

Generalizations not only that are not intresting they are dangerous. Not all the christians are close minded, not all the arabs are terrorists and not all the american are fat (no offence meant). Generalizing brings hatred and conflicts between people.

Life is not always black and white. Sometimes colors are involved too.

Ok, you definitly should go down that christian road, you are a master word bender.

I didnt say my life is not important, I said I dont consider myself to be so important that I at all need to give my life a meaning and know that my soul will go somewhere. I dont want to go somewhere, I couldnt stand people when I was on Earth, how possibly shall I stand them in so called "heaven". The meaning to my life is life itself, I live in the here and now in the physical reality of the existing world and when its over its over, I have no problem with accepting the fact that there are some things on this World that are out of my reach.

When you build a machine, its dedicated to fulfill a certain service over a given period of time and after that its destined to break. Thats its purpose. This gift of life it has, it can use to do something good with, to enjoy it in full breaths. That christian attitude basically wants me to wait until I am dead until I can enjoy life. I can enjoy life and the afterlife probably too in the christian world but I find it arrogant to assume that every person on this world is afraid of Death. I consider myself to be one of billion cogs turning in a huge system and I was given the gift to live on this planet, so why do I want more ? Why would I run around having the claim I am so important my soul needs to live forever ?

I dont think that way. I dont think the universe was made that way, to give every atom the ability to live forever that would be in direct violation with the second law of thermodynamics which is the entropy. I think this world follows cycles, things are created and things are destroyed, so that new things can emerge. That is the circle of life but by taking elements out of this equation and putting them in an eternal life, you are ruining it.

With generalizations, I dont refer to stereotypes. Regarding the american church its a thing you see often in this forum. When christians start to evangelize people in threads for their causes. To say that America is "advanced" and therefore not prone to such error is a bromide. The contrary is the truth, the larger a system becomes the more prone it becomes to error. This is some sort of worship that comes along with that bromide, namely "because god is all-knowing he always must be right". You cant imagine how much I hated those anti self-deterministic quotes in my religion lessons. I regulary was thrown out of class because I became aggressive at this sort of blind wisdom.

I perfectly know that life is not black and white and I want it to stay that way. If I start tho idealizing something and to believe in some sort of idea, may it be Krishna, God or Allah; I am adding a component to my life that was not meant to be its nature. But and thats the kicker, maybe believe is meant to be lifes nature, since nature has brought us and we have brought religion. We cant argue that fact therefore I accept it as an unresolved question and I accept religion. What I dont accept tho is religion telling me how I am supposed to live my life to get a gift at the end that I do not want.

You asked if atheism was good. By that you implied that people who choose atheism dont know if its good and maybe need to be told otherwise. That again is anti self-determination. SD means that your choice is always good. Of course not everyone can do that for himself but you can assume that I can do that for myself and have done it for myself. I am not an Atheist, I am an Agnostic. This is not because I dont dare to say God sucks and like to keep my options open in case of there maybe is a God but we dont know it. Its because I believe in facts and fact is: "we dont know it". The likelyhood of manking only imagining this whole religious stuff and having made up all religions is for me 100%. But the likelyhood of species existing in the universe, maybe as pure energy, which could seem like Gods to us, is for me: given. Thats my standpoint.

Furthermore I believe in the power of belief. Its an integral part of human existance and everyone inherits that. if its just you believing in your favourite soccer team to win the match on saturday, you are a believer, everyone is. Therefore I dont deny nobody to belief, on the contrary I respect the beliefs of people every day in my usual life and ignore their objective blur. They do the same for me. But the mass phaenomena that is religion I dont follow, because:

- I have made bad experience with mass phenomena and generally think they are bad
- I dont want no afterlife, I am glad when this life is finally over
- I dont like to be controlled

Still there is a kicker. Tmorrow on xmas, I'll go to church for the first time in 5 years. My gf didnt want to go there because she is very atheistic but I dragged her to. From times I like the social gatherings and I think the single persons in church have a lot of wisdom to convey. You conveyed wisdom as well in your posts to me. So here is my offer: if the church can accept that I am a self-determant being and accepts my way as it is and lets me live my life, I will listen to its wisdom and accept it as a morale guide and mentor for myself. I am convinced that the World needs a morale guide and mentor more than ever. The church needs to reform itself in that direction and then it can serve the purpose again it did before. As long as they let me alone with afterlife, higher beings and whatever sort of physically non-existant kind of stuff.

 

[Tigerlily]

I just wanted to know how exactlly does Atheism help you in your life? I mean how does it make you feel better to belive there is no God?

This is not meant to insult anybody but I'm just facinated about how some people can live without any kind of faith.

I've found that Atheists are typically realists and "feeling better" doesn't come into play. How do you know there is a God? Do you realize how often coincidences occur? I am sickened by the behavior of so many religious people I've come into contact with over the years. I prefer to keep away from their double standards and hatefulness towards anything/anyone who's different because God says it's wrong. For me, Secular Humanism seems like such a nicer way to live your life and less of putting yourself with groups that constantly bicker with one another about who's right and who's wrong. What's wrong with just being a good person on your own without a man in the sky telling you what to do?

Ok, you definitely should go down that christian road, you are a master word bender.

That's good advice. Some people just need religion in their lives.

I'd like to take this opportunity to say that I am well impressed with people who stand up for what they believe in, against all odds. I live in a predominately religious area and if I shared my views and opinions with most people around here would, I'd be judged harshly.

 

[Kraska]

Ok, you definitly should go down that christian road, you are a master word bender.

I didnt say my life is not important, I said I dont consider myself to be so important that I at all need to give my life a meaning and know that my soul will go somewhere. I dont want to go somewhere, I couldnt stand people when I was on Earth, how possibly shall I stand them in so called "heaven". The meaning to my life is life itself, I live in the here and now in the physical reality of the existing world and when its over its over, I have no problem with accepting the fact that there are some things on this World that are out of my reach.

When you build a machine, its dedicated to fulfill a certain service over a given period of time and after that its destined to break. Thats its purpose. This gift of life it has, it can use to do something good with, to enjoy it in full breaths. That christian attitude basically wants me to wait until I am dead until I can enjoy life. I can enjoy life and the afterlife probably too in the christian world but I find it arrogant to assume that every person on this world is afraid of Death. I consider myself to be one of billion cogs turning in a huge system and I was given the gift to live on this planet, so why do I want more ? Why would I run around having the claim I am so important my soul needs to live forever ?

I dont think that way. I dont think the universe was made that way, to give every atom the ability to live forever that would be in direct violation with the second law of thermodynamics which is the entropy. I think this world follows cycles, things are created and things are destroyed, so that new things can emerge. That is the circle of life but by taking elements out of this equation and putting them in an eternal life, you are ruining it.

With generalizations, I dont refer to stereotypes. Regarding the american church its a thing you see often in this forum. When christians start to evangelize people in threads for their causes. To say that America is "advanced" and therefore not prone to such error is a bromide. The contrary is the truth, the larger a system becomes the more prone it becomes to error. This is some sort of worship that comes along with that bromide, namely "because god is all-knowing he always must be right". You cant imagine how much I hated those anti self-deterministic quotes in my religion lessons. I regulary was thrown out of class because I became aggressive at this sort of blind wisdom.

I perfectly know that life is not black and white and I want it to stay that way. If I start tho idealizing something and to believe in some sort of idea, may it be Krishna, God or Allah; I am adding a component to my life that was not meant to be its nature. But and thats the kicker, maybe believe is meant to be lifes nature, since nature has brought us and we have brought religion. We cant argue that fact therefore I accept it as an unresolved question and I accept religion. What I dont accept tho is religion telling me how I am supposed to live my life to get a gift at the end that I do not want.

You asked if atheism was good. By that you implied that people who choose atheism dont know if its good and maybe need to be told otherwise. That again is anti self-determination. SD means that your choice is always good. Of course not everyone can do that for himself but you can assume that I can do that for myself and have done it for myself. I am not an Atheist, I am an Agnostic. This is not because I dont dare to say God sucks and like to keep my options open in case of there maybe is a God but we dont know it. Its because I believe in facts and fact is: "we dont know it". The likelyhood of manking only imagining this whole religious stuff and having made up all religions is for me 100%. But the likelyhood of species existing in the universe, maybe as pure energy, which could seem like Gods to us, is for me: given. Thats my standpoint.

Furthermore I believe in the power of belief. Its an integral part of human existance and everyone inherits that. if its just you believing in your favourite soccer team to win the match on saturday, you are a believer, everyone is. Therefore I dont deny nobody to belief, on the contrary I respect the beliefs of people every day in my usual life and ignore their objective blur. They do the same for me. But the mass phaenomena that is religion I dont follow, because:

- I have made bad experience with mass phenomena and generally think they are bad
- I dont want no afterlife, I am glad when this life is finally over
- I dont like to be controlled

Still there is a kicker. Tmorrow on xmas, I'll go to church for the first time in 5 years. My gf didnt want to go there because she is very atheistic but I dragged her to. From times I like the social gatherings and I think the single persons in church have a lot of wisdom to convey. You conveyed wisdom as well in your posts to me. So here is my offer: if the church can accept that I am a self-determant being and accepts my way as it is and lets me live my life, I will listen to its wisdom and accept it as a morale guide and mentor for myself. I am convinced that the World needs a morale guide and mentor more than ever. The church needs to reform itself in that direction and then it can serve the purpose again it did before. As long as they let me alone with afterlife, higher beings and whatever sort of physically non-existant kind of stuff.

Christianity doesn't mean bending words, the church and it's servants mean that.

You seem to be pretty angry with people. I can understand you to be honest, people can be so disgusting sometime. However every coin has 2 faces.

Now I see that like other you understand afterlife like some kind of physical fenomen. Totally wrong. The afterlife is a spiritual, non-material existence thus it does not affect the material world at all.

What is the difference between generalization and stereotype? If America has a problem with americans evangelizing on forum then if should solve it's problem not blame the whole Cristianity. Sure people can't tell you that you can do that and you can't do this because "God is all-knowing" that's just stupid and manipulating. But instead of listening to those idiots why don't you make a curiosity experiment and read the 10 Commandements. You will find big similarities between them and the social rules that make our society.

I never asked if atheism was good, I only asked how does is help you because I really like to see how other people with different ideologies think. There is no hidden sense in my question.

Again you seem to think that the church using religion leads the world. That is true only in third world countries such as India and Pakistan. The Western, civillized part of the world doesn't give a damn about what the church says.

My conclusions:

1. People need to think for themselve and stop listening to what priests or other people say.
2. Church used and still uses religion as a mean to manipulate people thus fulfilling their own private agenda.
3. The church needs indeed to reform (although I see little hope in that)
4. Stupid, close-mided people that don't accept other always existed and will continue to exist.
5. Marry Christmass

 

[entropie]

That's good advice. Some people just need religion in their lives.

I'd like to take this opportunity to say that I am well impressed with people who stand up for what they believe in, against all odds. I live in a predominately religious area and if I shared my views and opinions with most people around here would, I'd be judged harshly.

Ya I can share your feeling. The society I live in is predominantly not in religion but other things I dont agree with and one-upmanship is not the thing jus anybody gets along with too easily for too long.

To me its never about "being against everything". Especially in my society I think a lot of the morale guide a church can offer would be a good thing. For me it is about balance for all things in life this is what I think is always the best way.

 

[Beargryllz]

It looks to me that when you think about immortality you think about immortality on Earth. That would be a living hell. To belive in an afterlife means to belive that after psysical death you go to a place where there in no hatred not greed nor arogance. Where there are no people starving while other have billions. Where there is genuine, true love not the interested, perverted one we have here.

Have you ever experienced love? Why did you feel that love was perverted? And why is there an afterlife? What would you do in an afterlife?

 

[redacted]

I never knew atheism is cool. I always perceived it as a different ideology.
What exactlly do you base your ideeas one?

I was making a joke (maybe it's too American).

I already said how and why my belief system works. I'm honestly a little offended by your dismissal of my last post so I'm gonna stop posting...if you care to understand, you have enough material here already.

Edit: it's probably largely a language problem, but I am also kinda over this discussion.

 

[guesswho]

The only logical conclusion I have reached is that "we don't know".
It is neither denial nor acceptance of god.

Why does atheism have to be good or bad?
Maybe it's good for me and bad for you.
So, if it's good for some and bad for the others, what's it's general label ?

It has no general label.

Atheism is just a reaction to theism.

 

[FigerPuppet]

There is nothing inherently good about atheism in its pure form, the pure form being the definition of the word and nothing else; in the case of atheism that would be "lack of belief". Same deal for theism, but "belief in one diety". It's only when you start gluing values and belief systems to the two that you begin being able to pit them against each other in "bad"/"good" way.

 

[Kraska]

Have you ever experienced love? Why did you feel that love was perverted? And why is there an afterlife? What would you do in an afterlife?

I never experienced love, and problably won't do it either. However the love as we understand it means you, me and our happiness. Real love means to help as many people as you can without waiting for something in exchange. The afterlife would be, in my opinion, the same place where God created the angels and where Adam and Eve lived before they were banished. I think it's a place to rest and fell the real beauty of life.