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  1. #61
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I guess I should say that I cannot believe in things if I find the evidence is so strongly against them, even if I wanted to believe. On that note, I don't feel bad about not believing in a god, souls, spirits, and so forth. I don't a believe a god actually resolves any fundamental problem of existentialism, so that makes no difference. A god is not a necessary premise to morality, so God is not important there, either. Given the state of the world, I of course am lead to question what kind of crazy or deranged god would subject humanity to what parts of it experience on a day to day basis and really find a lack of meaning more comforting than the notion that we have a sadistic omnipotent overlord. Regarding the after life, I find death worrisome no matter you look at it. An eternal afterlife is as disturbing to me as oblivion.

    So, I'm okidoki without religion, thank you very much.
    You blame God for the state the world is into?
    We, the human beings, created this world. With all its atrocities.
    Even most of the so called natural disasters are created by us.

  2. #62
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    You blame God for the state the world is into?
    We, the human beings, created this world. With all its atrocities.
    Even most of the so called natural disasters are created by us.
    Then what does God even do?

  3. #63
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    You blame God for the state the world is into?
    We, the human beings, created this world. With all its atrocities.
    Even most of the so called natural disasters are created by us.
    If God is omnipotent and God is our creator, then he/she/it is the reason we are here creating the suffering, and God is refusing to intervene to make things better. I've said before that God is not omnipotent or God is not benevolent, but it's pretty clear God can't be both.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    You blame God for the state the world is into?
    We, the human beings, created this world. With all its atrocities.
    Even most of the so called natural disasters are created by us.
    By that logic parents aren't responsible for children, networks aren't responsible for ratings, and farmers aren't responsible for harvests. Blame and credit are two sides of the same Responsibility coin. Do you mean to tell me that the common God we speak of is exempt?
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  5. #65
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    A well considered and good post.

    I agree with you that God and the promise of an afterlife do not solve existential problems or death anxiety, at least definitely not in any experiential way, I dont feel that eternity is more, or as, terrifying than oblivion.

    I dread oblivion more but even if it could be irrefutably proven that the afterlife was wonderful and waiting on you after death it doesnt remove the need to die to get there. Which is horrible.
    I don't just dread dying, I dread an eternal afterlife, even in heaven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    On the other hand I dont see any crazy or deranged God, the whole God in the dock thing to me just belies a lack of understanding of what God is and also a kind of anthropomorphism which is mistaken, although if you are to judge using that criteria then no God is preferable to a mad or wicked one. Although I would say that a mad or wicked deity is no deity at all but something else. A pretender. Which is entirely possible.
    Now you're sounding like a gnostic.

    Anyhow, you can't deny that many, probably most theists have a rather anthropomorphic idea of God. At least in the USA, I recall data showing that only a quarter of religion people believe in a God that was neither interventionist nor judgmental.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Morality can be considered apart from God, although as a believer I dont do that, I do think that properly understood the morality which stems from belief in God is radically humanistic, radically ecological and balanced, it does not demand too much sacrifice, although it does demand a proper and true accounting, both consciousness and conscience.
    To me, if God is an omnipresent thing that never punishes nor rewards, never forces thing in a tangible way, and it cannot be proven or disproven exist, then it is irrelevant, and I could care less whether or not this so-called God exists and consider the discussion a waste of time.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #66
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    I think it is thrilling and inspiring that human beings can be good without the help or threat of some sort of omniscient omnipotent being surveying them constantly.

    This is what your question sounds like to me: What a miserable existence you must live, not believing in outlandish lies to make yourself feel less shitty about the truth. How do you manage that?

    Here's the thing. I don't want some stagnant, dogmatic mythology to comfort me. Sure I might want to believe that we all go to a magical land of candy and happy after we die, but I'm not going to believe it just because I want it to be so. That is rather foolish don't you think? It reminds me of when children want a toy and the parents say no, I don't have the money for that. And the child counters with: "But I want it, you have to!" But the child isn't going to get that toy, because that's just the inescapable fact of the matter. Besides, religion doesn't just create nice comforting lies. It can create horrible nasty lies like unbaptized babies go to limbo when they die, if you worship the wrong God you burn and suffer for all eternity, etc.

    Religion seems all happy and loving NOW. That's because its powers are waning. Not so long ago before this, not believing could cost you your life. They forced their dogma down our throats and had a monopoly and our minds when they were strong. We have become more educated and have discovered so much more about the world. The bully can't push us around anymore because we can hold our own. Now it's saying: "Pfft all that opression, hellfire, and violence? Ah that was the old us, that's in the past man, chill out. I just wanna be yer bud! Jesus just wants to rap with ya man." It has to take that tactic if it wants to survive.

    I don't believe in God. I believe with education, science, logic, and a thirst for self-improvement, we will make the world a better place. There is no need for God.



    The war on terror is a terrible example for you to prove your point. George Bush is not an atheist he is a Conservative Christian. And he actually framed the war on terror as a "Crusade". Many people in the United States supported attacking them based on religious differences. There was a great deal of anti-Islamic sentiments at the time, and even today. Besides, I think you're confusing secularism with Atheism. You're attaching ideologies to Atheism, when Atheism is not attached or associated with anything political. Atheism is not secular politics. And this religious extremism thing is not a 21st century phenomenon. Look at the crusades, the Spanish Inquisition. Look at all the holy wars fought over the last couple milennia.

    That being said, if you aren't capable of defending your points than I guess I will have to do it for you. War and ignorance does not require Religion to happen. It is about fear and ignorance, and lack of education. But here's the thing, by claiming to have all the answers and scaring people with threats of damnation, Religion perpetuated this fear and ignorance to further their own agenda. That is almost the entire basis of religion, a tool to keep the masses in check. Rational, empirical thought does not do this. It does not claim to have all the answers. But when it does find definitive answers, they are based on rigorous testing and logic. And if you use logic and empiricism to convince people of a plan of action you are not preying on their ignorance and fear. You are educating them. That is why I would rather use science as my guidepost. Sure it doesn't have all the answers yet, but they don't just make shit up. Besides it is always moving forward and discovering more. It only grows stronger and forces Religion to give more and more ground. The opposite will never be true. Science won't have to do the awkward: "Oh that limbo thing we said a while ago? Just ignore that now".




    Here's the thing. The world is better. It is less violent and murderous than it has been in a long time and this trend shows no sign of stopping.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/ste..._violence.html

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2186573/


    That's the sad thing, that the world is still so terrible, and yet it has never been better in that respect. Medicine is making magnificent advances. They can remove tumours and correct tremors with ultrasounds now! Just because violence and disease still exist doesn't mean that science and reason is failing. Because unlike religion, Science doesn't claim to have all the solutions, they're simply just working towards finding them.

    What has religion ever done to cure illness? When Mother Teresa was sick and dying, she didn't pray to be healed and stay in one of her sick beds at a Sisters of Charity location. She went to one of the finest hospitals in the United States.

    You don't need faith to accept science because it works and actually provides verifiable evidence.
    Very interesting post indeed.
    But again you like most of the people like you fail to understand one thing. The church as an institution runned by corrupted people with private agendas is one and God and faith is something else. You like to use the atrocities the church did in the past taking advantage of people's stupidity as an argument against religion.

    Now, if you would have paid more attention at my earlier post, you would have seen that I wrote that manipulation have many forms. The war of terrorism is one of the best examples of political manipulation. I never said that Bush was an atheist or anything.

    About the world being a less violent place, think again.
    Have you seen the latest cartoons? Ben 10, Batman and the others? Smash that, kick this, puch the other one, throw the bad guy into a pile of boxes. Kids are indoctrinated with violence since early childhood so those articals are nonsense. Stop reading only things that you want and look around you.

  7. #67
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    This is a point of confusion when discussing the question of God. I don't choose to believe atheism. It isn't something I look to for help in my life or for comfort, and it doesn't make me feel better. It is simply the best reasoned sense I can make of reality. I don't believe what pleases me to think or to fulfill a personal desire. My conclusions are a reflection of what I am able to honestly understand about reality.

    There is a question of how relevant it is to have a worldview that makes you feel good. I can see an argument in favor of that, but for some reason whether it makes me feel good, bad, or indifferent is not relevant. Trying to understand reality as it is, whatever that may be seems like the approach that would lead an individual to identify real problems to solve.
    Have you ever thought that you can belive the reality as it is and at the same time belive in God as well?
    I for example accept the Big bang theory and the evolutionist one and I will belive other theories as well as long as science comes with some decent proof.
    But those theories are no proof against God.

  8. #68
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    Have you ever thought that you can belive the reality as it is and at the same time belive in God as well?
    I for example accept the Big bang theory and the evolutionist one and I will belive other theories as well as long as science comes with some decent proof.
    But those theories are no proof against God.
    Are you saying God has no causal relationship to reality?

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I don't just dread dying, I dread an eternal afterlife, even in heaven.
    I dont, I dont even dread an existence which would be entirely cerebral or consciousness based but without physical or feeling aspect.

    Although if it where an existence without God that would be a different story and for all eternity? It doesnt bare thinking about.

    Now you're sounding like a gnostic.
    I dont mean to, I dont know a lot about gnosticism.

    Anyhow, you can't deny that many, probably most theists have a rather anthropomorphic idea of God. At least in the USA, I recall data showing that only a quarter of religion people believe in a God that was neither interventionist nor judgmental.
    I believe that God could be both interventionist and judgemental but why what criteria or measure? If God is responsible for creation then I would expect him to act as some of the deep greens suggest their Gaia spirit does, ie human suffering could be a result of failing to check our numbers or behave in congruence with eco-systems.

    If there's as many anthropomorphic theists as atheists then that's disappointing.

    To me, if God is an omnipresent thing that never punishes nor rewards, never forces thing in a tangible way, and it cannot be proven or disproven exist, then it is irrelevant, and I could care less whether or not this so-called God exists and consider the discussion a waste of time.
    You mistake my point I think, morality should not be based upon seeking to avoid the wrath of God and incur his favour, God isnt like some sort of celestial lab coated behaviourist and it is entirely possible to live a Godless morality and still be moral or ethical and upstanding but as a believer I would make my moral choices based upon God's teaching, personally I believe that if you're an atheist and believe the whole thing is a process of alienation of human traits to an imaginary friend you could still live God's teaching as I understand it and have a good life.

    Eric Fromm makes much the same point in his book Man For Himself, an enquiry into the psychology of ethics, the whole book is praise for the old testament teaching to love others as you love thyself.

    However, while an atheist or agnostic could adopt that morality because it seems sensible to for me, as a believer, it only really is satisfactory because I know it is God's teaching as relayed by his prophets and son, which as I understand it was in many ways himself in person, although I know there's even believers challenging that thinking now.

  10. #70
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyDigestion View Post
    I've never thought about atheism, I've never thought about God either. I never believed in God even as a kid. & I went to church & all that. It just never even entered my thinking, the concept of God. I mean, where would He be? It's like the idea of the perfect father figure.... purely fantastical. My personality type is RCUAI, & one of the items on there is "atheistic/agnostic tendencies"... so I've just never bothered with the God scene.
    You really confuse me. You never thought about atheism but you also never thought about God either. So you simply chosed to be atheist because of you personality type that says you have atheistic tendencies?

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