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  1. #51
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Logic and reason arent exclusive to either atheism or theism, although the style of debate that moves so quickly to dispute doesnt get an airing so much. Cheers for posting, I did read the entire post BTW.
    "the style of debate that moves so quickly to dispute doesn't get an airing", what does that mean? I've never heard anyone type anything like that before.
    RCUAI
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    "Man is free, but his freedom ceases when he has no faith in it."

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyDigestion View Post
    "the style of debate that moves so quickly to dispute doesn't get an airing", what does that mean? I've never heard anyone type anything like that before.
    I'm just that good

  3. #53
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Hang on a minute, its not like those cultures which practiced human sacrifice where long lived relative to the others, if God is doing anything he's supporting those that dont practice ritual sacrifice, its those societies which have become ascendent.

    I dont know that it was the Pope which ordered or sanctioned the first crusades, I think there was Spanish involvement originally and they created the terminology of infidel because of a lack of fidelity to the Christian gospel version of Jesus, and they were far from defenceless, the ottomon empire was probably the super power of the day and strictly speaking most of the crusades were defeated, if an injustice was done to anyone by the crusades it was the christian nations because their best people were committed elsewhere allowing corruption and scandal at home, like the stories related in Robin Hood tales or their like.

    Those are small potatos those sorts of arguments against God or theism, it would be as easy to link atheism with communism, fascism, nazism or capitalism and be done with it, the body count and crimes are far worse than anything in theist history.
    I really don't understand what are you trying to say with this post. Perhaps my English skills are failing me.
    But I can tell you one thing. Communism being an atheist sistem is pure myth. And I live in a former communist country.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    I really don't understand what are you trying to say with this post. Perhaps my English skills are failing me.
    But I can tell you one thing. Communism being an atheist sistem is pure myth. And I live in a former communist country.
    Communism is probably compatible with religion and with atheism, since its a political ideology, although in the totalitarian varieties the state has tried to impose communism as an exclusive way of thinking, atheism has been part of that historically.

  5. #55
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    [

    I'm just that good
    I'll admit you're good, but you didn't answer my question. I need answers from people like you, otherwise I'll just go thru life ignorantly with my own limited awarenesses, shit is wack.
    RCUAI
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    "Man is free, but his freedom ceases when he has no faith in it."

  6. #56
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    I'm afraid that I cannot agree with you when you say that something is good if it benefits someone, because that thing might very well hurt somebody else. So while it is good for someone it can be very damaging for someone else. A good thing is something that benefits everybody not just some group.
    I figured it was implied that I meant net benefit instead of absolute benefit. The benefit minus the harm is the total goodness (we also have to include marginal utility, for example, giving a sandwich to a starving person is better than giving a sandwich to a fat person).

    I guess it's still up for question whether or not a little good to a lot of people is "better" than a lot of good to a single person... but I'll leave that up to individuals to decide.

    I belive people need faith more than ever today, because we don't live in world where people are empathetic and compassonate. We live in a world where people exploit people. For example the West has a easy life at the expense of those poor countries we have exploited and invaded for centuries.
    I'm gonna have to disagree with your hidden premise here -- that faith makes people more (net) empathetic and compassionate. In fact, having a strict sense of external morals seems far less consistent with empathy than a dynamic system such as the one I described in my last post. If you believe in something because of faith, you are by definition less connected to visible evidence -- someone disagreeing isn't a suggestion to question your views, since your views are not predicated on environmental change (like hearing someone say something).

    So people need faith and hope in a better after life in order to not go crazy and destroy everybody that oppresed them for century. I mean if there is not Heaven nor God why should they suffer here? It wouldn't matter if they start killing and robbing at all. There would be nobody to condemn them. And the social law can't do anything about this. Because they could take their revenge and then commit suicide. It wouldn't matter at all if there would be nothing afterwards.
    So you're saying without faith people are sociopaths? I strongly disagree. Atheism and hedonism are entirely different things.

    I have a suspicion that people that think not having religion would lead to moral weakness are actually confusing the issue of LOSING your faith and the crisis that would ensue with the actual belief system people without faith have formed over time. I agree that the moment of world-shattering realization would probably be pretty traumatic and would have long term emotional consequences. But that doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not good morals are harder or easier to reach without God. Like I said before, I think they're easier to reach, since you don't have the confounding factor (Hitchens referred to it as a moral dictatorship) of not being able to question your core beliefs without "sinning". Now, there are many pick-and-choose religious people that basically build their moral systems the same way I have, and I have no problem with them. But then, what's the point of God in their systems? They just choose when to follow the word and when not to -- when to take it literally and when not to, etc. I do that too, I just focus on all external influences instead of giving extra weight to the bible, which is clearly just a book.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyDigestion View Post
    I'll admit you're good, but you didn't answer my question. I need answers from people like you, otherwise I'll just go thru life ignorantly with my own limited awarenesses, shit is wack.
    I meant that when discussion looks like its rapidly degenerating to a slanging match people turn off.

  8. #58
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dala View Post
    I would just like to point out that I, and many atheists, don't 'believe there is no god.' This position is (almost) as indefensible as the belief that there is a god.
    I believe "there is no God". I don't think I have to prove it to believe it.

    It's like the "flying-spaghetti-monster" argument (which annoys me since I made the same argument earlier and now I can't take credit...although that's what I'm doing now ). Would you really say you have no belief about an invisible flying-spaghetti-monster? Sure, you can't prove it doesn't exist, but like... it just... doesn't exist. That's how I feel about God. Reserving belief is too PC for me.

  9. #59
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Believing in something just because the alternative feels bad/scary/difficult is exactly what you just cautioned Evan against. Also, I'm sure many battered wives and scads of other unfortunates out there labor under the same handicap: fear.

    There are many other arguments in favor of a deity that give one pause, this is not one of them.
    Faith has nothing to do with fear nor does God.
    Sure you will offen hear in the churches that you must be afraid of God's wrath but that's just crap.
    God is love and compasion.

  10. #60
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    Faith has nothing to do with fear nor does God.
    Sure you will offen hear in the churches that you must be afraid of God's wrath but that's just crap.
    God is love and compasion.
    If God, in your personal narrative, is literally "love and compassion", then you're setting up a tautology. "How can atheism be "good" if it is defined as the lack of God?" really means "how can atheism be "good" if it is defined as the lack of love and compassion?". The answer is, it can't. If you defined God that way, atheists are assholes. And I'm not an atheist.

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