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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    You talk as if God was the one guiding the christian armies or the aztecs directly. You forget that there were people preaching not God Himself. It wasn't God that told the French and British to slauther the Muslims it was the pope and others that used God's name to manipulate and corrupt people in order to fulfill their agenda. The same thing goes for the Aztecs, Indians, Arabs and many other.
    So don't blame God for what people did in His name, guided by corrupt and greedy men.
    Hang on a minute, its not like those cultures which practiced human sacrifice where long lived relative to the others, if God is doing anything he's supporting those that dont practice ritual sacrifice, its those societies which have become ascendent.

    I dont know that it was the Pope which ordered or sanctioned the first crusades, I think there was Spanish involvement originally and they created the terminology of infidel because of a lack of fidelity to the Christian gospel version of Jesus, and they were far from defenceless, the ottomon empire was probably the super power of the day and strictly speaking most of the crusades were defeated, if an injustice was done to anyone by the crusades it was the christian nations because their best people were committed elsewhere allowing corruption and scandal at home, like the stories related in Robin Hood tales or their like.

    Those are small potatos those sorts of arguments against God or theism, it would be as easy to link atheism with communism, fascism, nazism or capitalism and be done with it, the body count and crimes are far worse than anything in theist history.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    I don't know about flying but I really feel good to know that there is a better place after death, where I can rest after all the crap I suffered here.
    To belive that there is nothing after death and that you suffer here for nothing is something I find really depresing.
    Believing in something just because the alternative feels bad/scary/difficult is exactly what you just cautioned Evan against. Also, I'm sure many battered wives and scads of other unfortunates out there labor under the same handicap: fear.

    There are many other arguments in favor of a deity that give one pause, this is not one of them.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Believing in something just because the alternative feels bad/scary/difficult is exactly what you just cautioned Evan against. Also, I'm sure many battered wives and scads of other unfortunates out there labor under the same handicap: fear.

    There are many other arguments in favor of a deity that give one pause, this is not one of them.
    I dont think there's any suggestion in the post that belief is motivated by fear and that its a comfortable or preferable alternative to facing the facts, although I'm familiar with this from the "bold" or "courageous" atheist POV it just seems more and more like an ego trip for non-believers the more I hear it.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think there's any suggestion in the post that belief is motivated by fear and that its a comfortable or preferable alternative to facing the facts, although I'm familiar with this from the "bold" or "courageous" atheist POV it just seems more and more like an ego trip for non-believers the more I hear it.
    I don't doubt there are non-believers and believers that find any kind of personal statement bold even if it's not simply because they've managed to convince themselves their choice (be it in haircare products or a deity) is the hardest and highest road. So now they get to congratulate themselves on what outstanding, swimming-against-the-tide individuals they are. An easy trap for anyone to fall into. Enneatype 4 (me) being no exception.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  5. #25
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I guess I should say that I cannot believe in things if I find the evidence is so strongly against them, even if I wanted to believe. On that note, I don't feel bad about not believing in a god, souls, spirits, and so forth. I don't a believe a god actually resolves any fundamental problem of existentialism, so that makes no difference. A god is not a necessary premise to morality, so God is not important there, either. Given the state of the world, I of course am lead to question what kind of crazy or deranged god would subject humanity to what parts of it experience on a day to day basis and really find a lack of meaning more comforting than the notion that we have a sadistic omnipotent overlord. Regarding the after life, I find death worrisome no matter you look at it. An eternal afterlife is as disturbing to me as oblivion.

    So, I'm okidoki without religion, thank you very much.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #26
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    well faith isn't required to breathe,eat, or drink so theres your answer.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #27
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    I think it is thrilling and inspiring that human beings can be good without the help or threat of some sort of omniscient omnipotent being surveying them constantly.

    This is what your question sounds like to me: What a miserable existence you must live, not believing in outlandish lies to make yourself feel less shitty about the truth. How do you manage that?

    Here's the thing. I don't want some stagnant, dogmatic mythology to comfort me. Sure I might want to believe that we all go to a magical land of candy and happy after we die, but I'm not going to believe it just because I want it to be so. That is rather foolish don't you think? It reminds me of when children want a toy and the parents say no, I don't have the money for that. And the child counters with: "But I want it, you have to!" But the child isn't going to get that toy, because that's just the inescapable fact of the matter. Besides, religion doesn't just create nice comforting lies. It can create horrible nasty lies like unbaptized babies go to limbo when they die, if you worship the wrong God you burn and suffer for all eternity, etc.

    Religion seems all happy and loving NOW. That's because its powers are waning. Not so long ago before this, not believing could cost you your life. They forced their dogma down our throats and had a monopoly and our minds when they were strong. We have become more educated and have discovered so much more about the world. The bully can't push us around anymore because we can hold our own. Now it's saying: "Pfft all that opression, hellfire, and violence? Ah that was the old us, that's in the past man, chill out. I just wanna be yer bud! Jesus just wants to rap with ya man." It has to take that tactic if it wants to survive.

    I don't believe in God. I believe with education, science, logic, and a thirst for self-improvement, we will make the world a better place. There is no need for God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    You post is indeed very interesting and I really appreciate it. Although it's long you made it easier to read, again thank you.

    Now about you said:

    You have described in the first part a very common phenomenon that unfortunately is present even in the 21st century. I am taking about religios indoctrination that creates extremists. It creates those Christians that belive they know God's will and everybody should listen to them, those Muslims that commit suicide in God's name, those Judaists that claim some land because God's gave it to them and those Hindus that used to burn women alive because goddess Khali wanted so. I partially agree with you, because people have used religion to manipulate people in order to fulfill their own agenda for century. However I cannot agree with you when you blame religion for that. I would rather blame the lack of education for it. Because it is the lack of education that makes people vulnerable to manipulation in any of it's forms. That doesn't mean that inteligent people can't be manipulated. One of the best example is USA's "war on terrorism" that made some of the most inteligent people on earth belive they are doing something good while in reality only served someone's agenda. However this in not a political forum so I won't go further.
    The war on terror is a terrible example for you to prove your point. George Bush is not an atheist he is a Conservative Christian. And he actually framed the war on terror as a "Crusade". Many people in the United States supported attacking them based on religious differences. There was a great deal of anti-Islamic sentiments at the time, and even today. Besides, I think you're confusing secularism with Atheism. You're attaching ideologies to Atheism, when Atheism is not attached or associated with anything political. Atheism is not secular politics. And this religious extremism thing is not a 21st century phenomenon. Look at the crusades, the Spanish Inquisition. Look at all the holy wars fought over the last couple milennia.

    That being said, if you aren't capable of defending your points than I guess I will have to do it for you. War and ignorance does not require Religion to happen. It is about fear and ignorance, and lack of education. But here's the thing, by claiming to have all the answers and scaring people with threats of damnation, Religion perpetuated this fear and ignorance to further their own agenda. That is almost the entire basis of religion, a tool to keep the masses in check. Rational, empirical thought does not do this. It does not claim to have all the answers. But when it does find definitive answers, they are based on rigorous testing and logic. And if you use logic and empiricism to convince people of a plan of action you are not preying on their ignorance and fear. You are educating them. That is why I would rather use science as my guidepost. Sure it doesn't have all the answers yet, but they don't just make shit up. Besides it is always moving forward and discovering more. It only grows stronger and forces Religion to give more and more ground. The opposite will never be true. Science won't have to do the awkward: "Oh that limbo thing we said a while ago? Just ignore that now".


    You also said that atheists tend to see the world as it is, as a not-so-friendly-human place. That you tend to make this world better by not concentrating on an after life. I do agree went you say that this world is not so nice, but how exactlly do you make it better? As much as I know the atheism is growing but the wars are still present, thousands of people are murdered while their murderers are seen as "peace keepers", there are extreme wealth differences between people, when some don't care about tommorow while others try to survive from a day to another. Misery and suffering still exist in more than half of the world. Illnesses and epidemies are still a big problem. These are just a few of the problems we have to face today. So how have the atheists made the world better?
    Here's the thing. The world is better. It is less violent and murderous than it has been in a long time and this trend shows no sign of stopping.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/ste..._violence.html

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2186573/


    That's the sad thing, that the world is still so terrible, and yet it has never been better in that respect. Medicine is making magnificent advances. They can remove tumours and correct tremors with ultrasounds now! Just because violence and disease still exist doesn't mean that science and reason is failing. Because unlike religion, Science doesn't claim to have all the solutions, they're simply just working towards finding them.

    What has religion ever done to cure illness? When Mother Teresa was sick and dying, she didn't pray to be healed and stay in one of her sick beds at a Sisters of Charity location. She went to one of the finest hospitals in the United States.

    You don't need faith to accept science because it works and actually provides verifiable evidence.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I guess I should say that I cannot believe in things if I find the evidence is so strongly against them, even if I wanted to believe. On that note, I don't feel bad about not believing in a god, souls, spirits, and so forth. I don't a believe a god actually resolves any fundamental problem of existentialism, so that makes no difference. A god is not a necessary premise to morality, so God is not important there, either. Given the state of the world, I of course am lead to question what kind of crazy or deranged god would subject humanity to what parts of it experience on a day to day basis and really find a lack of meaning more comforting than the notion that we have a sadistic omnipotent overlord. Regarding the after life, I find death worrisome no matter you look at it. An eternal afterlife is as disturbing to me as oblivion.

    So, I'm okidoki without religion, thank you very much.
    A well considered and good post.

    I agree with you that God and the promise of an afterlife do not solve existential problems or death anxiety, at least definitely not in any experiential way, I dont feel that eternity is more, or as, terrifying than oblivion.

    I dread oblivion more but even if it could be irrefutably proven that the afterlife was wonderful and waiting on you after death it doesnt remove the need to die to get there. Which is horrible.

    On the other hand I dont see any crazy or deranged God, the whole God in the dock thing to me just belies a lack of understanding of what God is and also a kind of anthropomorphism which is mistaken, although if you are to judge using that criteria then no God is preferable to a mad or wicked one. Although I would say that a mad or wicked deity is no deity at all but something else. A pretender. Which is entirely possible.

    Morality can be considered apart from God, although as a believer I dont do that, I do think that properly understood the morality which stems from belief in God is radically humanistic, radically ecological and balanced, it does not demand too much sacrifice, although it does demand a proper and true accounting, both consciousness and conscience.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    This is what your question sounds like to me: What a miserable existence you must live, not believing in outlandish lies to make yourself feel less shitty about the truth. How do you manage that?
    Then, admittedly, your own personal filters are too strong and you have reframed what has been said with reference to your own internalised norms, values and beliefs.

  10. #30
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    I just wanted to know how exactlly does Atheism help you in your life? I mean how does it make you feel better to belive there is no God?

    This is not meant to insult anybody but I'm just facinated about how some people can live without any kind of faith.
    This is a point of confusion when discussing the question of God. I don't choose to believe atheism. It isn't something I look to for help in my life or for comfort, and it doesn't make me feel better. It is simply the best reasoned sense I can make of reality. I don't believe what pleases me to think or to fulfill a personal desire. My conclusions are a reflection of what I am able to honestly understand about reality.

    There is a question of how relevant it is to have a worldview that makes you feel good. I can see an argument in favor of that, but for some reason whether it makes me feel good, bad, or indifferent is not relevant. Trying to understand reality as it is, whatever that may be seems like the approach that would lead an individual to identify real problems to solve.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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