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  1. #141
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    It helps me by giving me hope that my life is not just a program that simply acts according some comands given by the physical body. It gives me hope that I won't die and everything will finish just like some useless body.
    Why does it give you hope? Does immortality appeal to you? Is it something you strive for?

  2. #142
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    I don't understand why do you consider that this question leads to regress? I find it more of a qustion that leads to others without any king of regress or progress.
    "Infinite regress" is a term that means any answer to a question leads to the same question. For example, the question "what caused the beginning of the universe?" leads to infinite regress because if we say "[arbitrary thing] caused the beginning of the universe," we have to ask "what caused the beginning of [arbitrary thing]?" To answer that, we can say "[arbitrary thing #2] caused the beginning of [arbitrary thing]," but then we have to ask "what caused the beginning of [arbitrary thing #2]?" etc. etc.

    When you substitute "God" for one of the arbitrary things above, it doesn't help you answer the question of the beginning of the universe at all. Because there's always the next step in the infinite regress.

    That's why I conclude that the entire question is pointless -- there will never be an answer that breaks the loop. The question itself is the problem, since it's set up as a paradox, just like the Pinocchio example I listed in my last post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    It helps me by giving me hope that my life is not just a program that simply acts according some comands given by the physical body. It gives me hope that I won't die and everything will finish just like some useless body.
    Well this right here is the difference between you and me. Being just a program is actually comforting to me -- it makes the universe into something neat and tidy in my mind. If I were something "more" than a program (whatever that means), it would mean out of the billions of galaxies and billions of stars in our galaxy and millions of species on earth, there's this one weird physical phenomenon that somehow breaks the pattern of the rest of the universe. Not only does that seem absurdly unlikely, but it seems completely narcissistic as a species, and not questioning the obvious biases involved in that conclusion is a huge mistake.

    I just can't see this kind of belief as anything but a fairy tale. It's like one of those crazy widow characters in a movie that keeps saying to herself, "George will be home any minute," but George actually died 12 years ago. Believing that we are special things in the universe seems just about as crazy, but since so many people are in the same kind of denial at the same time, it's less obvious.

  3. #143
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    It helps me by giving me hope that my life is not just a program that simply acts according some comands given by the physical body. It gives me hope that I won't die and everything will finish just like some useless body.
    And what makes you think that an Atheist doesnt believe as well ? Its not your God he believes in, it could be just another idea. He could for example belief in his own strength to make the World a better place so not everyone has to run around and hope for Death until he goes to heaven. What if he belives that the greatest sense he can create for himself in life is making sense out of life and passing this wisdom along to future generations ?

    You christians sometimes remind me of nazi Germany. Its either one does belief in your God or one is a senseless automaton who has no brain and whose soul will be lost eternally. I mean really, dont you think that we have survived this kind of thinking for years by now ? Dont you rather think that true meaning in life lies in the versatility of things one can belief in rather than belief in one sole God ?

    I am not against the community christianity gives, I am sure many people like that and that it gives hope and shelter to those people. But I dont like this fundamental undertone the american church has mitigated into. This tone like "either you are with us or you are against us". You really should think about that, cause I promise you in the hand, if you dont: it will turn out bad for you in the end.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #144
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    How many cycles of living across time and space does alchemical transformation create the creator who no longer partakes of the illusion within the illusion of the illusion?
    What?

  5. #145
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Why does it give you hope? Does immortality appeal to you? Is it something you strive for?
    It looks to me that when you think about immortality you think about immortality on Earth. That would be a living hell. To belive in an afterlife means to belive that after psysical death you go to a place where there in no hatred not greed nor arogance. Where there are no people starving while other have billions. Where there is genuine, true love not the interested, perverted one we have here.

  6. #146
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    "Infinite regress" is a term that means any answer to a question leads to the same question. For example, the question "what caused the beginning of the universe?" leads to infinite regress because if we say "[arbitrary thing] caused the beginning of the universe," we have to ask "what caused the beginning of [arbitrary thing]?" To answer that, we can say "[arbitrary thing #2] caused the beginning of [arbitrary thing]," but then we have to ask "what caused the beginning of [arbitrary thing #2]?" etc. etc.

    When you substitute "God" for one of the arbitrary things above, it doesn't help you answer the question of the beginning of the universe at all. Because there's always the next step in the infinite regress.

    That's why I conclude that the entire question is pointless -- there will never be an answer that breaks the loop. The question itself is the problem, since it's set up as a paradox, just like the Pinocchio example I listed in my last post.



    Well this right here is the difference between you and me. Being just a program is actually comforting to me -- it makes the universe into something neat and tidy in my mind. If I were something "more" than a program (whatever that means), it would mean out of the billions of galaxies and billions of stars in our galaxy and millions of species on earth, there's this one weird physical phenomenon that somehow breaks the pattern of the rest of the universe. Not only does that seem absurdly unlikely, but it seems completely narcissistic as a species, and not questioning the obvious biases involved in that conclusion is a huge mistake.

    I just can't see this kind of belief as anything but a fairy tale. It's like one of those crazy widow characters in a movie that keeps saying to herself, "George will be home any minute," but George actually died 12 years ago. Believing that we are special things in the universe seems just about as crazy, but since so many people are in the same kind of denial at the same time, it's less obvious.
    Well, if you feel good about following the flock and follow a pre-set pattern then it's your choice. However to me it look like a teenager mentality.
    You see most teenager go to clubs and discos while ignoring school just because they want to be part of the gang. They are afraind that doing something different will make them some kind of weirdos.
    This is exactlly what I read in you post.

  7. #147
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    And what makes you think that an Atheist doesnt believe as well ? Its not your God he believes in, it could be just another idea. He could for example belief in his own strength to make the World a better place so not everyone has to run around and hope for Death until he goes to heaven. What if he belives that the greatest sense he can create for himself in life is making sense out of life and passing this wisdom along to future generations ?

    You christians sometimes remind me of nazi Germany. Its either one does belief in your God or one is a senseless automaton who has no brain and whose soul will be lost eternally. I mean really, dont you think that we have survived this kind of thinking for years by now ? Dont you rather think that true meaning in life lies in the versatility of things one can belief in rather than belief in one sole God ?

    I am not against the community christianity gives, I am sure many people like that and that it gives hope and shelter to those people. But I dont like this fundamental undertone the american church has mitigated into. This tone like "either you are with us or you are against us". You really should think about that, cause I promise you in the hand, if you dont: it will turn out bad for you in the end.
    Just a second there. Christians don't say that if you don't belive in God as we do you are an sensless automaton. That's a medieval mentality. People are much more open minded today. You can call it God, Allah, Shiva, Krishna or whatever. You can pray at Jesus's picture, at Allah's name or at some statue, it doen't matter. Christians, at least in Europe, are not as devoted to the church, I mean we belive in God or some kind of force beyong our reach, we belive that we won't simply disappear after death, we go to church on Sunday only if there is time.
    God comes in different names and formes and if some tell you that's not true and only his ideea of God is the right one, he is either idiot or a sectant.

    Now, I've never been to USA but as much as I understood from what you said, the american church adopted a medieval mentality. That really surprises me considering that USA is one of the most developed countries on earth. However the american church doesn't represent the christian community, it's only a part of it that mitigated into the wrong ideea. Looks more like an institution for propaganda rather than a religios one.

    You need to stop generalizing everything.

  8. #148
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    Well, if you feel good about following the flock and follow a pre-set pattern then it's your choice. However to me it look like a teenager mentality.
    You see most teenager go to clubs and discos while ignoring school just because they want to be part of the gang. They are afraind that doing something different will make them some kind of weirdos.
    This is exactlly what I read in you post.
    I was an atheist before it was cool!

    (No, seriously, though, I was an atheist as a preschooler; I just didn't know the term yet.)

    Also, many atheists would use the same argument against religious people. I don't. Because I don't base my opinions on popular ideas...I don't mind if my opinions happen to match others, though. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

  9. #149
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    Just a second there. Christians don't say that if you don't belive in God as we do you are an sensless automaton. That's a medieval mentality. People are much more open minded today. You can call it God, Allah, Shiva, Krishna or whatever. You can pray at Jesus's picture, at Allah's name or at some statue, it doen't matter. Christians, at least in Europe, are not as devoted to the church, I mean we belive in God or some kind of force beyong our reach, we belive that we won't simply disappear after death, we go to church on Sunday only if there is time.
    God comes in different names and formes and if some tell you that's not true and only his ideea of God is the right one, he is either idiot or a sectant.

    Now, I've never been to USA but as much as I understood from what you said, the american church adopted a medieval mentality. That really surprises me considering that USA is one of the most developed countries on earth. However the american church doesn't represent the christian community, it's only a part of it that mitigated into the wrong ideea. Looks more like an institution for propaganda rather than a religios one.

    You need to stop generalizing everything.
    you said in your earlier quote to me that not believing in something would mean your body was just a random interconnection serving no purpose and that you wouldnt want that. I told you that this maybe exactly what I want and belief in because it is the truth. you want to give your life a meaning after death. i dont consider myself at all to be so important that my life needs any meaning at all.

    if christians are as educated as you say, why dont you accept atheism ? I mean this whole institution is not different from a star trek convention. the latter one just believes in a different thing and doesnt walk around the world picking fights with anyone who is not with them.

    Generalizations are the only thing that is intresting. you cant say that you are a good thief or a bad thief, you are a thief thats all there is to it. the multiple dimensions that lie in between again is just human made bullshit to smooth their consciencse so they dont feel too guilty.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #150
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I was an atheist before it was cool!

    (No, seriously, though, I was an atheist as a preschooler; I just didn't know the term yet.)

    Also, many atheists would use the same argument against religious people. I don't. Because I don't base my opinions on popular ideas...I don't mind if my opinions happen to match others, though. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.
    I never knew atheism is cool. I always perceived it as a different ideology.
    What exactlly do you base your ideeas one?

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