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  1. #101
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    This is true. One can be devout in their religion, and it be healthy. However, organized religion closes minds, overall. Or often, it leads to it. I think what it comes down to is the individual. @Peguy is religious and lacks that closed mind.

    Some people are naturally closed minded. Very set in their ways. And for some people, that is far more comfortable. I know people who have clung to religion because they couldn't organize their lives, and in short, didn't know what to do with themselves.

    But truth...what is truth?
    What is truth? Now that's some question. I think it depends. There are various versions of truth: the truth of the victor, the one of the defeated and the real one. This is a personal clasification I created. Of course people will always chose the truth that fits them best.

  2. #102
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    You want to tell me that someone beliving in something that can be touchted is more empathetic and compassionate than someone that belives in untouchble things. I find it hard to belive that someone beliving the in 10 Commandaments is less compassionate than someone touching a gun.
    That's not what I meant (or even close to what I said). Being open to changing your beliefs (basing beliefs on evidence and simplicity) is more conducive to empathy than having an absolute system (basing beliefs on faith) since it's by definition more dynamic. A closed system of morals doesn't leave the same amount of room for thinking about new situations.

    I never said that people without faith are sociopaths. However people are full with pain and misery and faith and the though of dooming your soul is the only one stopping them from breaking out.
    The fear of dooming one's soul has not been a significant motivator for me or for atheist friends of mine, and they don't just go crazy. I have never been scared of my soul being doomed, and I'm one of the most self-controlled people in my extended peer group. I don't want to do harm to others because I want to be a good person.

    Why do you think people would "break out" without this fear? I personally have never seen this happen (and I've seen many people go from religious to atheist).

    So, you start to understand what I try to say. Yes God is beyond this logical, physical univers you all try to conquer.
    If God is not causally related to the natural universe, what's the point of using the term "God" to describe things in the universe? I just don't get this at all.

    If the only point of God is a reward/punishment system in the afterlife, I guess that makes sense... it just sounds a little hokey.

    First of all you can't answer a question with another question.
    I did it, didn't I?

    The reason I asked you that question was to show that your question was absurd. I didn't actually expect an answer. It was rhetorical. You seem to believe there is something after death, other people seem to believe there is nothing. There is clearly no visible evidence for either, so asking for it is pointless.

  3. #103
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    How is atheism a form of extremism?

    Atheism is the default state for a person
    Depends on how you define atheism. In this discussion, is atheism a lack of belief in God, or a belief in the lack of God? Most people would abide by the latter definition. I've seen arguments that claim faith in God is innate.

  4. #104
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    That's not what I meant (or even close to what I said). Being open to changing your beliefs (basing beliefs on evidence and simplicity) is more conducive to empathy than having an absolute system (basing beliefs on faith) since it's by definition more dynamic. A closed system of morals doesn't leave the same amount of room for thinking about new situations.



    The fear of dooming one's soul has not been a significant motivator for me or for atheist friends of mine, and they don't just go crazy. I have never been scared of my soul being doomed, and I'm one of the most self-controlled people in my extended peer group. I don't want to do harm to others because I want to be a good person.

    Why do you think people would "break out" without this fear? I personally have never seen this happen (and I've seen many people go from religious to atheist).



    If God is not causally related to the natural universe, what's the point of using the term "God" to describe things in the universe? I just don't get this at all.

    If the only point of God is a reward/punishment system in the afterlife, I guess that makes sense... it just sounds a little hokey.



    I did it, didn't I?

    The reason I asked you that question was to show that your question was absurd. I didn't actually expect an answer. It was rhetorical. You seem to believe there is something after death, other people seem to believe there is nothing. There is clearly no visible evidence for either, so asking for it is pointless.
    Ok then, looks like my English is failing. But I can't agree you even now. Changing your belives and ideeas because of the first thing that differes from them looks to me more like instability. The second thing is that most of the religions allow alot of room to think. It is the church that limits it.

    I want to ask you a question, do you lived an american life? If yes then maybe you should consider that people in poorer countries have totally different problems and are more prone to do such a thing. And breaking out has nothing to do with religion but with the social situation. Religion is the one keeping things calm.

    What things in the Univers are decribed using the term God? When we talk about God we don't talk about something present in the univers.

    Sure it was a rhetorical question. He said that the non existence of the afterlife is a reality thus proven without having any kind of proof. I never expected a proof to come but people need to be carefull when using words.

  5. #105
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Depends on how you define atheism. In this discussion, is atheism a lack of belief in God, or a belief in the lack of God? Most people would abide by the latter definition. I've seen arguments that claim faith in God is innate.
    The latter definition is gnostic atheism. A lack of a belief in god(s) would be atheism, which could be gnostic or agnostic. I don't believe I know of any gnostic atheists, but I know many, many agnostic atheists.

  6. #106
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    The latter definition is gnostic atheism. A lack of a belief in god(s) would be atheism, which could be gnostic or agnostic. I don't believe I know of any gnostic atheists, but I know many, many agnostic atheists.
    Why would a belief in the lack of God be gnostic atheism?

  7. #107
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    If Peguy is your standard for open-minded, could you cite an example of a (preferrably recognizable) religious adherent that you consider close-minded for spectrum context?
    Could you restate that for clarity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    What is truth? Now that's some question. I think it depends. There are various versions of truth: the truth of the victor, the one of the defeated and the real one. This is a personal clasification I created. Of course people will always chose the truth that fits them best.
    Will they really? I think what some people believe to be true does not always fit them.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  8. #108
    Member Kraska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    Could you restate that for clarity?



    Will they really? I think what some people believe to be true does not always fit them.
    Yes that could be also possible. But I have seen a tendency in people to understand and accept as true only what they like. Sure most of the people I saw are teenagers so they are not a very good example but I have also seen this in grown up men.

  9. #109
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraska View Post
    You called the non existence of the afterlife a reality. As you said reality is based on proof so what proof you you have?
    Proof that I have is that when you die, you stop moving and talking, and your body decomposes. And after you are buried in the ground, you are never heard from by anybody else (not in a way that can be empirically proven).

    Now your turn. What proof do you have of the afterlife?

    If you wish to discuss the topic of reality, I must insist we stick to things that can be proven and NOT things that CANNOT be disproven, because at that point the discussion of what is real becomes moot, because for all you know, what you are reading right now is just a figment of your imagination.

    If faith in something that cannot be disproven helps you sleep at night, well, ignorance is bliss, and happy dreams to you. But whenever I gamble in a casino, I only bet on the numbers that I can see, otherwise I will surely go home empty handed.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    Could you restate that for clarity?
    Hrm. Okay.

    If you believe Peguy represents G, can you provide an example of an individual that represents B to you, for the sake of comparison?

    ^Let this scale represent religious individuals sorted by degree of open- to close-mindedness by your standards.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

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