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  1. #11
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Mirriam Webster says the meaning of the world "spirited" just means "full of energy." Perhaps the etymology comes from a religious context, but it doesn't have that meaning anymore.

    But I absolutely believe atheists can talk about spirituality and be spiritual. Though the word "spirit" certainly has a religious meaning, referring to the Holy Spirit and whatnot, but there is also a meaning relating to the human spirit, which implies neither a religious nor supernatural context... plus, one can certainly believe that people have "souls" without believing in God. I mean, Christians agree that even atheists have souls, right?

    Definition of SPIRIT
    1: an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
    2: a supernatural being or essence: as a capitalized : holy spirit b : soul 2a c : an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : ghost 2 d : a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being
    3: temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>
    4: the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person
    5a: the activating or essential principle influencing a person <acted in a spirit of helpfulness>

    EDIT: And for the record, I don't believe in ghosts or any other superstitions. (I do "knock on wood," but I don't really believe that will keep a spoken musfortune from coming true.) Then again, I'm not technically an atheist; I'm agnostic.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  2. #12
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In what way exactly?
    Virgin births, resurrections, angel sightings, contagious homosexuality, transmuting bread and wine into flesh and blood, and planetary flooding come to mind

    Here is an article on superstition

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstition

  3. #13
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Virgin births, resurrections, angel sightings, contagious homosexuality, transmuting bread and wine into flesh and blood, and planetary flooding come to mind
    Miracles are not the same thing as superstitions. I crossed out contagious homosexuality because that isn't a miracle, nor even a real argument from religion.

    Here is an article on superstition

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstition
    Yeah did you read this part?
    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    The Roman Catholic Church considers superstition to be sinful in the sense that it denotes a lack of trust in the divine providence of God and, as such, is a violation of the first of the Ten Commandments. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states superstition "in some sense represents a perverse excess of religion" (para. #2110).

    The Catechism attempts to dispel commonly held preconceptions or misunderstandings about Catholic doctrine relating to superstitious practices:
    Superstition is a deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand is to fall into superstition. Cf. Matthew 23:16–22 (para. #2111)

  4. #14
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Miracles are not the same thing as superstitions. I crossed out contagious homosexuality because that isn't a miracle, nor even a real argument from religion.
    Superstition is a belief in supernatural causality: that one event leads to the cause of another without any process in the physical world linking the two events.

    Miracles are, by definition, superstition

    Belief in miracles is widespread in Christianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Peguy, I understand that Roman Catholics do not believe in EVERY superstition known to man, but there are a large number of superstitions rampant throughout the Abrahamic religions (including Catholocism)

    Is resurrection supernatural or natural?

  5. #15
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Superstition and magic are sinful, so we will conveniently stop identifying our superstitious and magical beliefs as such.

    That's my interpretation of how this works.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Superstition and magic are sinful, so we will conveniently stop identifying our superstitious and magical beliefs as such.
    A rose by any other name

  7. #17
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Superstition is a belief in supernatural causality: that one event leads to the cause of another without any process in the physical world linking the two events.

    Miracles are, by definition, superstition
    Yeah I guess if one goes by a simple definition one picks up from an online dictionary; but although if one bothers to digg a little deeper there is a distinction between the two. For one thing, superstition is irrational by nature, wheras miracles are not. Much of the teachings on miracles within Catholicism at least is a rational-based inquiry onto why certain extraordinary events occur - like the Virgin Birth. Tertullian made the famous statement about miracles like the Virgin Birth being true because they are extraordinary, and it's arguable he was operating within Aristotlian logic when making this claim. Furthermore, intense investigations are often made concerning miracles in order to verify their validity or "worthiness of faith" as we call it.

    Here's an example of one miracle claim that failed the test:
    [youtube="aKkMOmhiuS8"]Miracle Cross[/youtube]
    [youtube="Op8_wKUhAMI"]Miracle Cross 2[/youtube]
    @5:30 in part 2 is where they explain the official decision that this is not a miracle.

    Now whether or not one believes in miracles is another matter.
    Peguy, I understand that Roman Catholics do not believe in EVERY superstition known to man, but there are a large number of superstitions rampant throughout the Abrahamic religions (including Catholocism)
    I know adherents believe in superstitions, the point is they are not part of the those religion's official teachings; AND there is a distinct difference between miracles and superstitions. One more distinction I could make is that superstitons often involve magic, whilst miracles do not - they come from divine power.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I know adherents believe in superstitions, the point is they are not part of the those religion's official teachings; AND there is a distinct difference between miracles and superstitions. One more distinction I could make is that superstitons often involve magic, whilst miracles do not - they come from divine power.
    What are the key differences between magic power and divine power?

    Is divinity natural or supernatural?

    If we take the sum of all Abrahamic religious teachings, could we discern if superstitions exist in official canon?

    For example, I was raised Lutheran so when we celebrated the Eucharist, we ate bread and drank wine in remembrance of Christ, while a Catholic would eat the flesh of Christ and drink his blood as Christ commanded.

  9. #19
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    What are the key differences between magic and divine power?
    Here's an extensive analysis that touches upon the matter:
    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011...taphysics.html

    Magic/superstitions by nature are unintelligible whilst divine power or more simply God is rationally intelligible.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Hobbits, by definition, are not dwarves. They are, therefore, not smaller than humans, though dwarves obviously are.

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