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Thread: abortion

  1. #61
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    I don't have a problem with abortions, but I don't think that these abortion clinics should be allowed to just do one for anybody.
    I think the exact opposite. I don't think just anybody should be allowed to be parents.
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    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    As much as I'd like to prevent Idiocracy from becoming reality, I get nervous when people talk about putting restrictions on who can become parents. Whose standards do we use? I think I'm a halfway decent parent but we didn't have health insurance or permanent jobs when we became pregnant with our first child, and we were in a temporary living arrangement (spending a year in an NYC sublet). If poverty were part of the standard I'm sure we wouldn't have been allowed to breed. And then the world would have been deprived of my precious snowflake who is perfect in every way.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    ... I still maintain that life is not valuable without sentience.
    So what's your cutoff level for sentience?

    Would a child suffering from Down's Syndrome be viewed as sentient?
    Would someone in a coma for years fit?
    What if they're actually sentient but just can't communicate due to a stroke? So we wouldn't really KNOW?

    What about your dog, if it's really smart and "seems" sentient?

    What if it's just a really stupid person who can't really contribute much to society? (Can we do medical experiments on them, since they're not really that sentient?)

    Can human life has value even if it doesn't come across as sentient? What about parents of children like mentioned above? Can there still be a relationship, and can they impact their parents' lives positively if they are not "sentient" in the sense many would hope? Are they less human?

    You see how complicated this all gets, I hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Belfry View Post
    If every human being was killed before they were born, the world would be a fantastic place to live.
    I've also heard that change for a better world always starts with oneself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retz View Post
    ...Why can't they just have the choice?
    Cause, um, you're murderin' babies! Ya wouldn't let mom smother her baby at 3 months even tho it's hers and thus her choice... why let her do it earlier?

    (Note: This is not necessarily my pov, I'm just making the argument because it needs to be said.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    ...I think the right is abused way too often as a type of "birth control", if you will. So my idea should be to regulate it more. I think those who should want an abortion must take it before a judge and get a license or something that allows them to have one.
    Does anyone have specific stats addressing this particular issue?

    It's a commonly thrown around idea ("abortion as birth control"), and one that causes people to be indignant (rightfully, imo)... but I just wonder what the actual STATS are. Is this scenario indicative of the average abortion, and what's the percentage of it, compared to "abortion due to rape" or some other cause?

    (Obviously the numbers won't totally reflect reality because of the nature of the topic, people might not be inclined to be honest about the topic... but it's a start.)

    As far as taking it before a judge... good grief. Judges can't process the cases they have now. We'd need a whole new profession as "rubber-stamp abortion judges" or something. And how many judges have the emotional endurance to survive day in and day out of dealing with that junk?
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  4. #64
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Belfry View Post
    I think the exact opposite. I don't think just anybody should be allowed to be parents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    As much as I'd like to prevent Idiocracy from becoming reality, I get nervous when people talk about putting restrictions on who can become parents. Whose standards do we use? I think I'm a halfway decent parent but we didn't have health insurance or permanent jobs when we became pregnant with our first child, and we were in a temporary living arrangement (spending a year in NYC). If poverty were part of the standard I'm sure we wouldn't have been allowed to breed. And then the world would have been deprived of my precious snowflake who is perfect in every way.
    I find it odd that--in the U.S., if not eslewhere--persons need a lisence to get married but don't need one to have kids.

    If felons can't be trusted to vote well, (such that we don't allow them to vote), how can they be trusted to raise children?

  5. #65
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    I find it odd that--in the U.S., if not eslewhere--persons need a lisence to get married but don't need one to have kids.

    If felons can't be trusted to vote, how can they be trusted to raise children?
    Saying you need a license to get married is misleading- you don't actually have to meet that many meaningful standards. You just have to be old enough, not retarded, not related, and pay the fee. Some states require a blood test but I don't think they actually do anything with the results- it's just so your partner is aware of anything you might be bringing to the table.

    And the difference between voting and reproducing is the difference between public and private. Honestly, how do you suggest we enforce that? Getting pregnant is an intimate biological process that happens INSIDE a human body. You seriously want to regulate that? If not, do you think mandating abortions or taking newborns away from mothers is the answer?
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I don't want to get into a whole big thing, but the basis of all pro-choice thought is that a fetus is part of the woman's body, not a sentinent being itself. Hence, "Keep the government out of my body" and the like.

    If this is true, then why does a murderer face two counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman? This has aggravated me forever, yet it never seems to be a part of the abortion debate.
    The political agenda behind pro-choice (or any viewpoint) isn't necessarily the same as the stated basis of reasoning by it's proponents. Since feminism is the basis of the former, the logical inconsistency between abortion and a murderer facing two counts for killing a pregnant woman is not much of a consideration because pointing it out does not advance feminist goals.
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  7. #67
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Ivy;202084]Saying you need a license to get married is misleading- you don't actually have to meet that many meaningful standards. You just have to be old enough, not retarded, not related, and pay the fee. Some states require a blood test but I don't think they actually do anything with the results- it's just so your partner is aware of anything you might be bringing to the table.[QUOTE]

    The rules are lax, (too lax IMO), but they have some teeth. E.g., why is there an age requirement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    And the difference between voting and reproducing is the difference between public and private. Honestly, how do you suggest we enforce that? Getting pregnant is an intimate biological process that happens INSIDE a human body. You seriously want to regulate that? If not, do you think mandating abortions or taking newborns away from mothers is the answer?
    The act of getting pregnant is (usually) private. (Thank God.) But having a child affects the public--and to a much greater degree than voting.

    I'm not sure I want it regulated. But C.P.S. already takes children away from bad parents, and newborns are taken away from mothers who give birth in prison.

  8. #68
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    The rules are lax, (too lax IMO), but they have some teeth. E.g., why is there an age requirement?

    The act of getting pregnant is (usually) private. (Thank God.) But having a child affects the public--and to a much greater degree than voting.

    I'm not sure I want it regulated. But C.P.S. already takes children away from bad parents, and newborns are taken away from mothers who give birth in prison.
    CPS takes children away when they are in clear and present danger, but it seems like what you're proposing would extend that power to greyer areas of parenting the "right" way. As someone who parents outside of the mainstream in several ways this gives me pause.
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  9. #69
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    CPS takes children away when they are in clear and present danger, but it seems like what you're proposing would extend that power to greyer areas of parenting the "right" way. As someone who parents outside of the mainstream in several ways this gives me pause.
    If a child is in clear and present danger, that is a good indicator that the child is not being raised the "right" way. Is it possible to know if the definition of "clear and present danger" extends beyond the current definition used by CPS?

    There may also be a pertinent distinction between allowing a couple to bring a child into the world, and allowing a couple to keep a child once they have been allowed to bring that child into world.

    Thoughts?

  10. #70
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    this gives me pause.
    And me, too.

    Cause, um, you're murderin' babies! Ya wouldn't let mom smother her baby at 3 months even tho it's hers and thus her choice... why let her do it earlier?

    (Note: This is not necessarily my pov, I'm just making the argument because it needs to be said.)
    It did need to be said.
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