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Thread: abortion

  1. #51
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I add my confusion to this. Rape and incest exceptions have never made sense to me. Either it's murder or it's not. To me, if you make exceptions then you have started sliding down the slippery slope. You've already endorsed abortion, now it's just a matter of on whose terms it's done.

    It reminds me of the old punch line, "Well, now we know you're a whore, we just have to haggle on price."
    Which was the point Jennifer and I were making: that what's at issue was never the baby's "right to live". Rather, that it is circumstances and society which dictates what is 'right' or 'wrong', at that moment in time.

    The focus was always on the mother. but because that is tricky, they shift it to the absolute of the baby instead: black or white. Yes or no. And when this theory is interjected by reality, they create 'exceptions'.

    Without seeing (?) that start to end, they have never considered from the baby's point of view, as they purportedly claim.

    So what you have are two sides arguing on unequal grounds. Pro life thinks it's arguing from the baby's right. Pro-choice thinks it's arguing for a woman's right.

    Both sides do not see the actual complexity: that abortion is actually about the weighing of the value of one life over another.

    And that is the actual controversy.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    So far, this thread has thankfully remained civil. That speaks volumes about the quality of people we have on this site.

    Like many people have already mentioned, I find it interesting that this extremely complicated issue usually revolves around two dichotomous positions. Its especially interesting in light of the fact that opinion surveys usually indicate that a majority (or at least a very large plurality) of respondents do not hold such black and white positions. If the issue were left to majority vote within the states, most states would probably allow abortion up to and including the third month of pregnancy, but not after except when the life of the mother was in danger or when the fetus has a terminal birth defect. As far as politicized positions on this issue are concerned, politicians and advocates adopt minimum winning coalitions that currently result in most "pro-choice" candidates being opposed to partial-birth abortion, and most "pro-life" candidates advocating that abortions be allowed in cases of rape, incest, or when the life of the mother is in danger.

    The issue essentially rests on two fundamental questions (three, if you want to debate whether humans have rights):
    1.) At what point does a zygote/embryo/fetus qualify as human life? The second attribute is rarely in dispute, so the question really becomes, "what does it mean to be human, and when does someone obtain those attributes?" Note that "human" and "personhood" are distinct concepts-otherwise, infants and severely retarded adults would not qualify as human.
    2.) At whichever point that a zygote/embryo/fetus becomes human, which rights take precedence; the right to life or the right to physical liberty? This is often the point at which questions regarding the "culpability" of the mother (rape versus consensual risky activity) becomes a factor.

    Have I left anything out?

    Myself, I lean strongly towards the pro-life position (unusual for an agnostic), but the sheer complexity of the issue prevents me from harshly judging any pro-choice position (except when children that can survive outside the womb are aborted for non-medical reasons-and I certainly don't consider psychological factors to be sufficiently medical under those circumstances).
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 04-19-2008 at 03:34 AM. Reason: forgot somethin

  3. #53
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I think that abortion is perfectly acceptable. Life is only valuable after it achieves some degree of sentience, and fetuses are not at that stage.

    If you disagree, then you should also consider it wrong to harm animals.

    I would consider it wrong to destroy a sentient machine, as a comparison. In other words, I believe that it is sentience, and not life, that is valuable. Life alone is little more than a sophisticated, self-sustaining chemical process (think of bacteria). It's awareness, a sense of will, and processing that make it meaningful.

    Note that I respect the intentions of those who disagree with me (preventing murder), I simply believe they are mistaken about the nature of fetuses.

  4. #54
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    I think that this discussion has remained very civil, for such a heated topic, if only the authorities could see other points of view as reasonably.

    I think we all feel for the babies that are aborted.

    I think we all feel that sometimes its necessary, we all realize that losing the possibility of life is much better than being unwanted, because that ruins 2 lives.

    However I feel that most abortions are done because the women involved are to scared of raising children, They use the excuses of not being ready financially or emotionally, but in most cases I think that its just that they are to scared to take the plunge into a unknown world.

    I myself had no experience of babies before I had my own.
    I was 22.
    I had no support when having my first, my parents made it clear that they wouldn’t be doing any baby sitting.
    I was on state benefits, so had no real income.
    It would have been easy to say that I wasn’t ready, that I wasn’t finically stable and to have terminated, No-one could have argued really. But I decided to keep him, tbh it was never in my mind not to.
    So I managed, in the 5 months I had left I did so much research into babies and childbirth I knew as much as my midwife.
    I brought things second-hand and cleaned them.
    I made do, and I don’t think I did a bad job.

    Now I’m a very happy mum of 4. I have a loving and supportive partner, and we do ok financially (with 4 things are never gonna be great), and I’ve never looked back.
    But then I always wanted kids, there are others who want a career instead. I not naïve enough to say because it worked nicely for me that it will for everyone.

    I just think in a lot (not all) of cases babies are terminated because of the fear of the unknown, of not knowing how yr manage.
    Addressing the issues that create such high abortion rates would be better than picketing outside clinics.

    It’s a very difficult subject and I don’t feel there is a right or a wrong. There will always be those that misuse the right given to them and those that need the rights in place. There is never a one answer fits all situation.

  5. #55
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I think that abortion is perfectly acceptable. Life is only valuable after it achieves some degree of sentience, and fetuses are not at that stage.

    If you disagree, then you should also consider it wrong to harm animals.

    I would consider it wrong to destroy a sentient machine, as a comparison. In other words, I believe that it is sentience, and not life, that is valuable. Life alone is little more than a sophisticated, self-sustaining chemical process (think of bacteria). It's awareness, a sense of will, and processing that make it meaningful.

    Note that I respect the intentions of those who disagree with me (preventing murder), I simply believe they are mistaken about the nature of fetuses.
    At what point do you consider growing humans to achieve sentience? They're really not much different when they're on the outside than they are on the inside, at least for the last several weeks of gestation. Humans are born much less developed than even other primates, because of our giant heads and upright pelvises. Babies are said to have a "fourth trimester" outside the womb-- for the first three months after birth, they're pretty much outside fetuses. If fetuses lack your criteria for sentience then so do very young babies.
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  6. #56
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Addressing the issues that create such high abortion rates would be better than picketing outside clinics.
    Agreed. Good post.
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  7. #57
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    At what point do you consider growing humans to achieve sentience? They're really not much different when they're on the outside than they are on the inside, at least for the last several weeks of gestation. Humans are born much less developed than even other primates, because of our giant heads and upright pelvises. Babies are said to have a "fourth trimester" outside the womb-- for the first three months after birth, they're pretty much outside fetuses. If fetuses lack your criteria for sentience then so do very young babies.
    I think that after a certain level of brain development, it's wrong to harm them. But not before.

    I'm not sure whether it's wrong to harm very young babies or not. (However, I think that parental instincts would result in people demanding legal protection against it, regardless of whether it has any rational basis) But I still maintain that life is not valuable without sentience.

  8. #58
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    I don't have a problem with abortions, but I don't think that these abortion clinics should be allowed to just do one for anybody.

    I think the right is abused way too often as a type of "birth control", if you will. So my idea should be to regulate it more. I think those who should want an abortion must take it before a judge and get a license or something that allows them to have one.

    I think that there are instances where an abortion is needed. Health-related issues, rape, etc. But getting an abortion just because they were too dumb to use birth control to me isn't an excuse. With what we know now, its inexcusable. I mean, let's face it, if they don't want the child, the mother can always put it up for adoption.

    I'm not saying I believe that life starts at conception. But somewhere along the line, that baby becomes alive. Better to be safe than sorry, in my opinion.

    In all honesty. its not an issue that I would consider arguing. I really could care less. But if I had to take a stance, this would be the one I would take.

  9. #59
    Junior Member Retz's Avatar
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    The reason I'm Pro-Choice is because of the fact it isn't black and white! If the only choice was to have the child all you have done is restrict the rights of women purely based on beliefs a majority of them may not even hold.

    I in no way shape or form want another persons values determining my decisions on what I can and can't do.

    Why can't they just have the choice?

  10. #60
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    If every human being was killed before they were born, the world would be a fantastic place to live.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    *leaves thread before full-blown misanthropy kicks in*
    ........maybe I should have taken a page from your book.
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