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  1. #41
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scantilyclad View Post
    I guess i'm looking at the situation quite irrationally. I believe the things that i believe because of the way i feel about them, i can't really give you a reason as to why i believe what i have said,other than that it feels right to me, however i will say that my mother was 16 years old when she had me, i don't believe that she was emotionally or financially read to have me, but i'm damn sure that she decided to keep me around. My mother loved me, and wanted to keep me and she found ways to do that and i think that saying someone is not financially ready or emotionally ready is just an excuse. I think people should own up to what they did. If they conceived a child knowing that they weren't ready, it was their own mistake. However, if a woman was raped, she had no control what so ever over getting pregnant, she had no choice, and i guess thats where i see that it might be okay. I guess i just believe in doing what is right, and i don't see abortion as the right thing to do unless the mother had no control of the situation what so ever. I understand what you are saying as far as that it has to be all or nothing, but there seems to be exceptions to all rules..right?

    I know you aren't picking on me, i also have trouble trying to explain myself sometimes, so i don't mind you expecting me to explain stuff.
    This line of reasoning squicks me out a little. It almost sounds like having the child is punishment for irresponsible sexuality. To be quite honest this is why I became more pro-choice when I became a mother- it is SUCH a huge responsibility that nobody should go into it if it's not what they want. I don't disagree that people should be aware of possible consequences when they make choices, but if they don't, I don't see forcing them to reproduce (when you wouldn't force another pregnant woman to reproduce if she hadn't been irresponsible) as a reasonable consequence.

    I'm extremely ambivalent on this topic as a whole (as I am on most topics) but there are certain aspects of it that I have strong univalent feelings about.
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  2. #42
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scantilyclad View Post
    I guess i'm looking at the situation quite irrationally. I believe the things that i believe because of the way i feel about them, i can't really give you a reason as to why i believe what i have said,other than that it feels right to me, however i will say that my mother was 16 years old when she had me, i don't believe that she was emotionally or financially read to have me, but i'm damn sure that she decided to keep me around. My mother loved me, and wanted to keep me and she found ways to do that and i think that saying someone is not financially ready or emotionally ready is just an excuse. I think people should own up to what they did. If they conceived a child knowing that they weren't ready, it was their own mistake. However, if a woman was raped, she had no control what so ever over getting pregnant, she had no choice, and i guess thats where i see that it might be okay. I guess i just believe in doing what is right, and i don't see abortion as the right thing to do unless the mother had no control of the situation what so ever. I understand what you are saying as far as that it has to be all or nothing, but there seems to be exceptions to all rules..right?

    I know you aren't picking on me, i also have trouble trying to explain myself sometimes, so i don't mind you expecting me to explain stuff.
    Ah, the difference in your position and several others', including mine, is the focus of your argument: you focus on responsibility and owning up to actions, while we're focusing more on the consequences for the child if the mother is not prepared to care for it. The severe consequences for some children who grow up in homes that don't want them and can't properly care for them (and the consequences for the mothers), regardless of intent and regardless of responsibility, are my main argument FOR the right to abort babies. You seem to have been a lucky one, and I'm VERY glad you're around, but I know not all children are as lucky as you (not to say you didn't have similar bumps in the road to everyone else, but rather that some children are just given crap when they enter this world).

    It's hard to say some children are better off not existing, because it's almost a purely philosophical argument, but seeing the squalor and abuse some children needlessly suffer from makes me wonder how many aborted babies are spared from that.

    I could really care less about punishing everyone for their mistakes. Most people deserve a second chance, and I would give that to them if I could, but what's done can't be undone, and tough choices must be made once a child is conceived.

    Edit: Also, Ivy had good points. Yeah, that whole line of reasoning and approach to punishment squicks me too, for exactly Ivy's reasons and more.
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  3. #43
    almost nekkid scantilyclad's Avatar
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    Oh dear, i'm not trying to say that having the child is punishment for irresponsible sexuality, i had a child out of irresponsible sexuality, and i don't consider it to be a punishment at all, if anything i consider it to be a blessing. I'm going to go ahead and choose to step away from this topic, because no one is right or wrong, and i do agree with some of the points you have made, but the things i say are really the reasons as to why I could never have an abortion. If other women choose to, then they choose to, and i would not judge anyone because of that. I've had friends who have chosen abortion and i understand it is a very personal and difficult decision to make, and i can understand why some would choose this route. I just feel like i'm being ganged up on a little bit( i know this is not your intention but it's how i'm feeling), and i understand that my opinions are a bit irrational, but i would just prefer not to discuss this any longer because i don't intend to offend anyone with such a touchy subject.
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  4. #44
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I can only speak for myself but I promise I'm not offended and I hope you're not either. It is a serious subject and people have strong feelings about it, and that's okay. This has been a pretty civil conversation so far- I think we should hi five ourselves for being able to have a civil discussion of abortion for almost a whole day! Even if it goes downhill now.
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  5. #45
    almost nekkid scantilyclad's Avatar
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    Oh i'm definitely not offended, this subject just puts a lump in my throat sometimes, but i do think we deserve a high five!, so *high five*
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  6. #46
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I hear you on lumpy throat syndrome. My idealistic opinion is that we should work on changing society to make abortion irrelevant or at least extremely rare. We need to work on poverty, easy access to birth control, and mental health safety nets. We need to eradicate stigmas on sexual education and improve general education so that people are not stuck in low places and have a wider perspective. If we did this we could pretty much say goodbye to abortion except in cases where it is medically necessary.

    My realistic opinion on this is that the above is a Star Trek idealistic fantasy society, but that in the meantime it doesn't make sense to outlaw abortion and in effect punish individuals for societal problems. But that doesn't mean I can't mourn the fact that it happens.
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  7. #47
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scantilyclad View Post
    Oh dear, i'm not trying to say that having the child is punishment for irresponsible sexuality, i had a child out of irresponsible sexuality, and i don't consider it to be a punishment at all, if anything i consider it to be a blessing. I'm going to go ahead and choose to step away from this topic, because no one is right or wrong, and i do agree with some of the points you have made, but the things i say are really the reasons as to why I could never have an abortion. If other women choose to, then they choose to, and i would not judge anyone because of that. I've had friends who have chosen abortion and i understand it is a very personal and difficult decision to make, and i can understand why some would choose this route. I just feel like i'm being ganged up on a little bit( i know this is not your intention but it's how i'm feeling), and i understand that my opinions are a bit irrational, but i would just prefer not to discuss this any longer because i don't intend to offend anyone with such a touchy subject.
    So can I. Totally not offended and wasn't even starting to feel that way. Actually, I completely respect that you have your opinion and your own reasons for not wanting an abortion for yourself, and just because you're not about to make a case about it doesn't mean it isn't valid. My opinions and yours differ, but it doesn't mean I can't follow your logic.

    Haha, Ivy, I agree. High fives all around! *hi fives hi fives* I was thinking the same thing about how surprisingly and admirably composed this discussion has been.
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  8. #48
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Then you have certain people like me who think natural rights and stuff like that is crap, and has nothing to do with reality, and think of course it is not wrong to kill a fetus, just like it's not wrong to kill a person or an animal. All ethics is arbitrary and that these debates are utterly pointless, objectively and subjectively.
    These debates are not pointless when you live in a society. Sure we might not have some kind of instinctual moral code embedded in us, but in order for a society to be stable we must have order. There is no place for moral relativism in society. Ethics serve as a reference point that connects all citizens together, and when we stop believing in any kind of absolute truths we lose the very core of our society. We will then fall from order into chaos because we will have nothing that binds us together.

    No one wants to live in a society full of people that believe murdering someone is not wrong. How could we feel safe letting our children leave the house to go to school? Do you believe that stealing and sexually abusing children is not wrong either? How about tying a gay man to a fence, torturing him, and leaving him to die? Now all Matthew Shepard's parents have left of him is the organization they created to stop hate crimes because two men thought it was perfectly acceptable to kill another person. Especially a homosexual person.

    These things are not relative. These are things done by selfish people who only think about what they want and never consider how their actions affect others.

    We live in a time where the laws that were intended to serve as a guide for ethical behavior or being pushed to their very "legal" limits, which is not what they were designed for. Abortion is just another issue that is able to slip through the cracks because no one believed that such a large number of women and men would prefer to run away from the consequences of their actions. This is the easy way out; the "American Way".
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  9. #49
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    An abortion in a controlled environment is better than an abortion in an uncontrolled environment.

  10. #50
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I hear you on lumpy throat syndrome. My idealistic opinion is that we should work on changing society to make abortion irrelevant or at least extremely rare. We need to work on poverty, easy access to birth control, and mental health safety nets. We need to eradicate stigmas on sexual education and improve general education so that people are not stuck in low places and have a wider perspective. If we did this we could pretty much say goodbye to abortion except in cases where it is medically necessary.

    My realistic opinion on this is that the above is a Star Trek idealistic fantasy society, but that in the meantime it doesn't make sense to outlaw abortion and in effect punish individuals for societal problems. But that doesn't mean I can't mourn the fact that it happens.
    Yeah, this.

    My perspective is that abortion takes an innocent life, but making it illegal will not stop it and will probably not even reduce it by much. We need to address the whys of abortion if we want to reduce it. Women shouldn't have to choose between the quality of their own lives and the lives of their babies.
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