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Thread: abortion

  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scantilyclad View Post
    I thought I personally was pro abortion
    Just a quibble -- but you mean you were like, "Abortion is great, everyone should have one"?

    (That's technically what the phrase "pro-abortion" would suggest. Which I doubt ANYONE -- except maybe Uber, when he's trying to provoke a reaction -- would claim to think.)

    So that seems to me to be a phrase to avoid, since it's a misrepresentation of the pro-choice stance.
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  2. #22
    Fe, rusted. Poser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    ...that almost sounds like you are arguing for legalized infanticide there.
    My Mom used to tell me all the time she believed in retroactive abortion.


  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by scantilyclad View Post
    With that said, the only time i think abortion should be an option, is if the female was raped. I can see why you may not want to have that child in your life as a reminder.
    What about if you find out the child is MR or blind? If so, where do you draw the line?


  4. #24
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    It's interesting that scantilyclad became more pro-life upon becoming pregnant. I have heard that a lot from women who were pro-choice before they became mothers. But I was pro-life and became more pro-choice. It is a HUGE and life-changing experience, having a child. IMO, it should always be voluntary. (Which is not to say that accidental pregnancies should always be aborted, FAR from it- even accidental pregnancies can become voluntary).

    Adoption is always an option, true- but in many cases it's not that viable an option. I think people throw it out there like it is, but in many cases the same thing that makes it a bad idea to keep the baby also makes it a bad idea to carry it to term. Addiction, for example. In a perfect world people would use the opportunity to get clean and fix their problems, but we all know this is not a perfect world.
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  5. #25
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Not THIS topic!

    I personally am pro-choice, with the thoughts "if you don't like abortions don't get one" which I see can be annoying to those with an evangelical zeal to save everyone from themselves. I don't think that a fetus is a human being until it can survive on it's own outside of the womb.

    I also think that AvereX had a good point by bringing up the social and economic implications- for those of you who have not read Freakonomics there's a chapter linking abortion and crime rates. Countries with no abortions have more unwanted children, unwanted children are often neglected by thier parents and grow up to be bad citizens. Having a child who you do not want and will not treat well is like getting a pit bull who you are not going to train properly and then releasing it into society. Some people just aren't up to dealing with that sort of responsibility- as another bumper sticker says "just because you can reproduce doesn't mean that you should."

    I think that the choice should be left up to the woman who will have her life changed by the pregnancy and child- it is her body that is in question. I think that there is a benefit to sex for the sake of pleasure, and when you add in a horrible threat like "you could get knocked up and it will cut back on your independance for the next 18 years and there's nothing that you can do about it" a lot of sex will lose its zeal.

    Nothing annoys me more than all of the abortion protestors who come out on campus every spring with thier pictures of aborted fetuses and "graveyard of the innocents." I have a right to think the way I do without being assulted with people handing out flyers on my way to class and trying to inform me that my thoughts are wrong. My decisions are mine and what happens to my soul is my responsibility, not thiers. Seriously, they should be working with the unwanted children helping mentor them in life so that thier existance might mean something instead of trying to change someone's opinion on the matter. Like my thoughts on many evangelicals- actions speak louder than words- if you care go do something about it, don't annoy me.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    (Which is not to say that accidental pregnancies should always be aborted, FAR from it- even accidental pregnancies can become voluntary).
    Yes, lets not put accidental pregnacies in with unwanted ones; my oldest son was unplanned, but that dosen't make him unwanted.

  7. #27
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    I guess another problem is that we have been spoiled to think we can separate sex from reproduction. This is possible to a degree, but obviously not in a foolproof way.

    [I suppose in older times, it was more obvious that sex could and would lead to pregnancy, which could easily result in the mother's death depending on the culture. And then there would simply be the retroactive abortion, such as abandoning babies to die from exposure and such.]

    In any case, at that point, valid "goods" (rather than evil vs good) start to be pitted against each other. Babies haven't done anything wrong or 'deserve death' ... but there is conflict over whether their needs outweigh the needs of others who have already established a life, but whom had more control in the say (in terms of sexual activity).

    And there's the problem of women always being stuck with the problem, whereas men can usually dodge out of the way depending on the culture.

    And the truth that a high percentage of conceptions still end in miscarriage (basically, "natural abortion")... so an awful lot of "sentient human beings" are dying if human life at conception = adult human life.

    It's funny that the assumption of a separate soul (which doesn't really appear in the OT) is what fuels most of the idea of fertilized eggs being humans. I have heard other ideas, that souls develop and mature and "grow"... but people don't seem to like that because it would suggest that an older soul might be more valuable than a younger one, if you have to choose. I don't know.

    Just... very very complicated.

    I was rather disappointed, the local fundie had pulled down his pics for awhile (he just had a sign saying, "What would have happened if Mary had aborted Jesus?" ...of course, I thought, "Well, that woulda really sucked to have God's omnipotent salvation plan for mankind ruined by a human being") ... but now he's back to his old tricks billboarding 5' x 5' aborted fetus shots again.

    I wish he'd be more constructive -- assuming that people choose to have an abortion just because they're evil or stupid (and thus just need to be beaten with a 2x4 over the head) is a pretty awful way to go about things.
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  8. #28
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    Owl: isn't the first bolded an assumption?


    Very perceptive. It is, but not an unsupportable one.

    God (the generic name for the eternal creator) is infinite, and thus indivisible. God cannot decide to reveal a fraction of his power or wisdom, just as he cannot create a rock that is too big for him to lift.

    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    Because if the first is negated, then the second can be explained in one word, albeit flippantly: Humor.

    The universe has a sense of humor all its own, some might say.

    And all this is being approached from the teleological viewpoint. What if one adheres instead to the belief of random coincidences and chaos? ie, that there is in effect no "grand design", and the universe, and life, are just chance creations of atoms striking together?
    People are free to believe what they want. If someone were to believe the above, I would suggest they back up and ask if eternalilty may be meaningfully predicated of material existence.


    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    Back to the topic though: the idea of life is something that has always been debated. Some would say it begins at the moment of conception. Others, when sentience begins (which is why many use the cut off of the first trimester as being legal for abortion: because before this, the foetus is not that developed yet). What's interesting is that, the moment the foetus has developed a nerve system, it will react to external stimuli on its own already. What constitutes life then? Sentience, or just the mere fact of being?

    Slippery slopes.
    I agree with Ivy. There is no real debate about when life begins, or even if the fetus is human. What is debated is whether a fetus is a person, or at what point it has been "ensouled," or whatnot.

    If sentience were necessary for life (personhood), then people who are in a coma, or simply asleep, would not count as persons.

    I'd like to continue, (this is getting good), but I've a class starting. Good night.

  9. #29
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    I used to be pro-choice, but I've been around so many children lately that I can't bear to call myself that anymore. I don't consider myself conservative, but I just can't have some kind of moral relativism in regards to abortion. I just don't see why the baby should have to die. Abortion is selfish; people just think about how it's going to affect their life, and so they are willing to kill someone in order to make their life easier. Sex is designed for making babies. If you don't think you're ready to have a baby then you should have thought about that before having sex. It's common sense. Put it up for adoption if you don't want it, but why is it even an option to kill it? Some people say that they are "being responsible" by aborting the baby, but really they should have been responsible preconception. Every action has a consequence and everyone knows that. The baby is the only one who is innocent in the entire matter.

    I had a friend that found out her mother was originally going to abort her and their relationship has eroded away. Just imagine you were in her shoes.
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  10. #30
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    firstly, is this straying off topic? but anyway, yea, interesting. let's explore!

    (disclaimer: note that the following are pure theoretical discussion, and may not necessarily be my own personal stand. i wish to provide a counterpoint so that this interesting debate may develop. )


    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post


    Very perceptive. It is, but not an unsupportable one.

    God (the generic name for the eternal creator) is infinite, and thus indivisible. God cannot decide to reveal a fraction of his power or wisdom, just as he cannot create a rock that is too big for him to lift.
    If a Being is omnipotent, wouldn't he surpass mathematics? because mathematics are founded based on the known world. ie, known world --->mathematics.

    But if some being was truly omnipotent, wouldn't He be beyond mathematics? ie, beyond the regular assumptions of infinite and indivisible.

    Another dimension: where one can be infinite yet divisible.

    in other words: an infinite being can choose to reveal a fraction of his power.

    so the solution to that age old paradox of the rock can perhaps be answered in this: Sentience.

    Knowing that one has the power, you choose not to create that rock too big to lift.

    So it never needs to be answered.

    Because that, would be omnipotence, isn't it? Power is not in exercise, but in restraint. It is knowing the answer, and not needing to test it.

    Because the proof of God is not in science. It is in faith: They are complements of different dimensions.

    (or at least, that is how i figure it. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post


    People are free to believe what they want. If someone were to believe the above, I would suggest they back up and ask if eternalilty may be meaningfully predicated of material existence.
    what if one does not believe in eternity then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post


    I agree with Ivy. There is no real debate about when life begins, or even if the fetus is human. What is debated is whether a fetus is a person, or at what point it has been "ensouled," or whatnot.

    If sentience were necessary for life (personhood), then people who are in a coma, or simply asleep, would not count as persons.

    I'd like to continue, (this is getting good), but I've a class starting. Good night.
    yeps. which was why i had said slippery slopes: Because straight from the definition of the embryo/sentience, you would have to deal with the issues of handicapped people not being 'human', and comatose patients etc. It was the basis for Hitler's Holocaust. The definition of the 'true race.' Ie, defining sentience and what makes life, leads into the topic of eugenics.

    and this, is why i am pro-choice. and will never force my choice onto others. it is far too complicated a world to simply be black or white. or that my choice = right, and everyone else = wrong.

    to me: circumstances dictate what is perceived as right or wrong. A 15 year old girl badly traumatised by rape would not be seen as 'wrong' to get an abortion. But one who's had multiple abortions as a crude form of birth control would, likely, be seen as wrong.

    who judges? society.

    based on what? circumstances.

    how can there ever be a cut-and-dried answer, then?
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