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Thread: abortion

  1. #11
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    If the existence of life is not sufficient to gaurantee rights, then in what sense do rights branch out from the existence of life?

    I fail to see how it is impermissible to end an intended life if it is permissible to end an unintended life.
    in my opinion, it is permissible to end an unintended life to resolve that lack of intention. if the intention wasn't there, then all that follows is a perpetuation of that mistake, therefore this intention is a dependency of a life without intrinsic error as well as all the rights that come with that life.

  2. #12
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I have had these exact thoughts. It is a difficult issue. For those who believe in a soul, a life beyond this one, we cannot know when the soul comes into the body.
    If an infinite, eternal creator existed, and if that creator creates not becuase it is lonely, or because it wants to be worshipped--for it is eternal, and therefore self-maintaining, not standing in need of anything it creates--but it creates in order express its being as a creator, then it should be expected that a full display of its being would be expressed in the act of creation.

    The most basic conceptual distinction that can be made is between being and non-being. The next most basic distinction is between material and non-material. A creator of infinite power and wisdom could create beings that are composed of only material properties, or only non-material properties, or both. If this creator existed, and it did not create one of these three most basic branches of being, then in what sense would its creation be a full expression of its power and wisdom?

  3. #13
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    in my opinion, it is permissible to end an unintended life to resolve that lack of intention. if the intention wasn't there, then all that follows is a perpetuation of that mistake, therefore this intention is a dependency of a life without intrinsic error as well as all the rights that come with that life.
    Just because I intended to have a child, how then am I obligated to refrain from killing that child? What if I decide later that my intention was a mistake, and I should never had intended to have a child?

  4. #14
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Just because I intended to have a child, how then am I obligated to refrain from killing that child? What if I decide later that my intention was a mistake, and I should never had intended to have a child?
    You should be a little more precise with the terminology, because that almost sounds like you are arguing for legalized infanticide there.
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  5. #15
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    I grew up during the "Abortion Wars" -- and being immersed in the conservative church, I heard a lot about this stuff. It always tore me up, to watch two groups of people fighting for "good values" while simultaneously demonizing those who disagree with them. The hypocrisy on both sides was astonishing.

    I don't know how I would have felt if I had lived (well, been fully sentient, I was living but still young) through the years before Roe vs Wade, then seen the changes occur. Maybe it would have changed me. But all I saw was the cruelty of adults directed at each other.

    I don't think it is a black and white issue at all, it's very complicated.

    So... why do we think that life begins at conception?
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  6. #16
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    If an infinite, eternal creator existed, and if that creator creates not becuase it is lonely, or because it wants to be worshipped--for it is eternal, and therefore self-maintaining, not standing in need of anything it creates--but it creates in order express its being as a creator, then it should be expected that a full display of its being would be expressed in the act of creation.

    The most basic conceptual distinction that can be made is between being and non-being. The next most basic distinction is between material and non-material. A creator of infinite power and wisdom could create beings that are composed of only material properties, or only non-material properties, or both. If this creator existed, and it did not create one of these three most basic branches of being, then in what sense would its creation be a full expression of its power and wisdom?
    Owl: isn't the first bolded an assumption?

    Because if the first is negated, then the second can be explained in one word, albeit flippantly: Humor.

    The universe has a sense of humor all its own, some might say.

    And all this is being approached from the teleological viewpoint. What if one adheres instead to the belief of random coincidences and chaos? ie, that there is in effect no "grand design", and the universe, and life, are just chance creations of atoms striking together?

    Back to the topic though: the idea of life is something that has always been debated. Some would say it begins at the moment of conception. Others, when sentience begins (which is why many use the cut off of the first trimester as being legal for abortion: because before this, the foetus is not that developed yet). What's interesting is that, the moment the foetus has developed a nerve system, it will react to external stimuli on its own already. What constitutes life then? Sentience, or just the mere fact of being?

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    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

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  7. #17
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You should be a little more precise with the terminology, because that almost sounds like you are arguing for legalized infanticide there.
    I'm not arguing for legalized abortion; I'm wondering aloud why it should be illegal.

    What about the case in which someone becomes pregnant by mistake, initially decides to keep the baby, but then changes her mind before the baby is born?

    Why should intentionality have any prescriptive force? OK, I intended to have this baby, but I intended to have it in order to harvest its organs, or feed it to my dog, or whatever.

    What's wrong with that?

  8. #18
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    It seems clear to me that life begins at conception-- it's a multi-cellular organism with a separate genetic identity from its host, the mother. I don't think it follows directly from that that ending life at that stage constitutes murder. I have a hard time believing that preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus, such as what commonly happens with many forms of artificial birth control, is an act of murder.

    This murkiness is what makes this topic so slippery, and it's why I think certainty is hubris.
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  9. #19
    almost nekkid scantilyclad's Avatar
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    I thought I personally was pro abortion, until i actually ended up pregnant myself. To me, that embryo was definitely a life. I never understood why there were so many people who were pro-life, until i had my own child.
    I don't think that a child's life should be ended because a person made a mistake. It's not the child's fault. As for the people who may not be fit for parenting, there is always adoption. There are lots of people who can't have babies, who would love to adopt a child that you don't want. Childbirth is a gift.

    With that said, the only time i think abortion should be an option, is if the female was raped. I can see why you may not want to have that child in your life as a reminder.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member edel weiss's Avatar
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    I'm pro-choice. I do believe it should be left up to the woman, whether she wants to have the baby or not. It's been proven in the past that making abortion illegal increases the crime rate by a substantial amount. I'm more inclined to believe that life starts after birth.

    Of course, abortion shouldn't be used as a crude form of birth control.

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