so why don't you have religion?

[Beargryllz]

Do you mean ethically wrong or untrue?

Ethically wrong

Who cares if there really is a man in the sky that really does want you to do what he says

If you cannot accept that being's moral philosophy, why embrace it?

 

[Lark]

Ethically wrong

Who cares if there really is a man in the sky that really does want you to do what he says

If you cannot accept that being's moral philosophy, why embrace it?

Alright, just wasnt sure you thought you could make things up as you go along. I used to think that way too. It was called my adolescence.

 

[Lark]

It's not just the stance toward homosexuality. It's a lot of things. I don't have a problem with religion on its own, but blind, unquestioning adherence to it can be problematic. I'm not vilifying or dehumanizing anyone. Quite the opposite, in fact-- religious adherents have brains, and they should use them to think critically about what they're taught in church, not just accept it blindly. Some do, of course, but I would say that at least in the US, the vast majority of the religious right do not. Lark, I know you've thought critically about your beliefs, and although I still disagree with some of the beliefs you hold, I can respect that you have a right to your own opinion.

As for the Bible thing, again, I think that has to do with critical thinking. You don't believe in all of it, if I understand you correctly. That's exactly how I feel-- some of it is true and relevant, some of it is blatantly wrong. It's just that in the religion I was raised in (Assembly of God) we were taught that you can't pick and choose what parts of God's word you believe, so even now, after having rejected that religion, I have trouble with the idea of only agreeing with some parts. That's really more where my conflict comes from... the issue with homosexuality is only ONE of the things that the Bible teaches that I believe is blatantly wrong. There are many others. I don't know if what you say is correct, that religion isn't historically responsible for the taboo against homosexuality. You are better versed in religious history than I am, so I'll take your word for it. But be that as it may, I don't find history particularly relevant to this argument-- some (many) religions nowadays specifically teach that homosexuality is wrong, and today is what concerns me.

From my early religious education: God exists and is perfect and all powerful. He doesn't make mistakes-->The Bible is God's Word. It was written by men, but dictated by God.-->God wrote the Bible and he doesn't make mistakes or change his mind, therefore everything in the Bible is and always will be true and relevant.

My critical thinking: Some teachings in the Bible are true and relevant; others are ethically wrong.-->Therefore, the Bible is not infallible nor timeless.-->Therefore God must not be perfect.-->Can an imperfect God really exist?

See what I mean?

EDIt: To add this part:
As for the "I'm right, you're wrong" thing, my line of work is all about teaching respect for cultural difference. I am, again, all-or-nothing on that one. It's easy to respect that people of other cultures like different foods and wear different clothes. It's a bit harder to respect their different way of going about education, personal distance and or hygiene practices, etc. It's really difficult to respect the treatment of women, systems of justice that are drastically different from mine (sanctioned murder, etc), but again, my personal code of ethics and beliefs doesn't allow me the arrogance of saying where the line between "Different" and "wrong" is. Of course I don't CONDONE the treatment of women in Afghanistan, or sanctioned murder, or things like that. I don't respect the practices themselves. But I respect the right of a culture to determine what is or is not appropriate for themselves.

For example, in the US, we have decided as a culture that driving on the right side of the road is appropriate for ourselves, so our traffic laws were based upon that. I understand you do things differently in the UK and Australia. It feels totally foreign and unnatural to me when I'm in those places, and I have to be really careful not to get hit by cars when crossing the street, but I'm not going to tell you it's wrong.

Yeah, all that goes double for you hippies!

You really got to start driving properly, I've heard about ex-pats struggling with it as much as you guys letting dudes marry dudes, like its prison or something

 

[Lark]

I would conclude more readily that therefore the Bible is not in fact God's word, it is the creation of humans, some of whom were truly inspired, some of whom were simply reflecting the baser customs or even instincts of their time and culture.

How do you know that's not what's going on with the critics of the bible? Seriously, I think that in the future, provided there is one, that people will be shocked at the sorts of things people where willing to believe because of political pressure to do so.

 

[Aquarelle]

You really got to start driving properly

EDIT: Also, I don't like the default wink. I like this one better.

 

[Coriolis]

Ethically wrong

Who cares if there really is a man in the sky that really does want you to do what he says

If you cannot accept that being's moral philosophy, why embrace it?

Alright, just wasnt sure you thought you could make things up as you go along. I used to think that way too. It was called my adolescence.

I agree with Beargryllz that much of mainstream religion is ethically wrong, but also consider it untrue in a factual sense. Its truth lies in its lessons and symbolism, which many adherents cannot fathom.

There is a middle ground between blindly accepting the edicts of some book, or church, or religiouis leader; and "making things up as you go along". It is developing a core of internally consistent, externally workable values, and then examining and revising them as you learn through life's experiences.

 

[Coriolis]

How do you know that's not what's going on with the critics of the bible? Seriously, I think that in the future, provided there is one, that people will be shocked at the sorts of things people where willing to believe because of political pressure to do so.

Some critics of the bible may do this when promoting their own theological or philosophical points of view. Direct criticism of the bible, however, will be bible-focused, and will stand or fall on the facts and arguments it contains. I have seen poorly supported and downright silly critiques of the bible, as well as very careful and well-documented ones. Any person with rudimentary critical analysis skills would have no trouble telling them apart.

People are people, with all the human virtues and failings. I simply put the bible into the category of human output, not divine output. That means both the bible writers and the bible critics are on an equal footing. Both are subject to the same criticisms, and neither one can claim divine authorship.

 

[Lark]

EDIT: Also, I don't like the default wink. I like this one better.

Stop otherizing me Auarella, I'll totally have to beat your ass if you keep it up!

 

[Lark]

Some critics of the bible may do this when promoting their own theological or philosophical points of view. Direct criticism of the bible, however, will be bible-focused, and will stand or fall on the facts and arguments it contains. I have seen poorly supported and downright silly critiques of the bible, as well as very careful and well-documented ones. Any person with rudimentary critical analysis skills would have no trouble telling them apart.

People are people, with all the human virtues and failings. I simply put the bible into the category of human output, not divine output. That means both the bible writers and the bible critics are on an equal footing. Both are subject to the same criticisms, and neither one can claim divine authorship.

Unlike most of the citations or anti-citations the bible itself has got loads of passages about that sort of behaviour and it condemns it, Jesus was all about trying to set the record straight about how the law givers of his day had made God's gifts into a rod for their and everyone elses back.

I also dont believe at all that the religions are unethical, even those which are scripturally limited are still a dialogue and reflect change in historic time. Like I said before, what is todays "WTF they believed that?!" becomes tommorrows "WTF they abandoned that?!", wait and see.

 

[Coriolis]

Unlike most of the citations or anti-citations the bible itself has got loads of passages about that sort of behaviour and it condemns it, Jesus was all about trying to set the record straight about how the law givers of his day had made God's gifts into a rod for their and everyone elses back.

I also dont believe at all that the religions are unethical, even those which are scripturally limited are still a dialogue and reflect change in historic time. Like I said before, what is todays "WTF they believed that?!" becomes tommorrows "WTF they abandoned that?!", wait and see.

My criticism isn't about Jesus, but then Jesus is not the bible. In fact, the bible does not even include all the information we have about Jesus. I would not claim all religions are unethical; perhaps not even that any religion was entirely unethical. I do say that any religion based upon blanket and uncritical adherance to a book (any book) will contain significant unethical elements, simply because the book has not yet been written, and will probably never be written, that is truly infallible.

 

[Ginkgo]

So I'm one of those people who thinks that humans are inherently religious. If you don't believe me, you should get some followers, convince them of your ideals, and vie against me.

 

[Lark]

My criticism isn't about Jesus, but then Jesus is not the bible. In fact, the bible does not even include all the information we have about Jesus. I would not claim all religions are unethical; perhaps not even that any religion was entirely unethical. I do say that any religion based upon blanket and uncritical adherance to a book (any book) will contain significant unethical elements, simply because the book has not yet been written, and will probably never be written, that is truly infallible.

Books and writing are one of the surer ways of transmitting knowledge and learning between generations and preserving it against corruption or degeneration.

We live in the age which suggests that coming up with ideas all by yourself and eschewing the past is a great idea, no problem with it, wont ever be as bad as what has gone by already right? Wrong. Its only a result that this principle, while popular, hasnt made serious inroads into social structures or institutions that there's not complete chaos already.

Although I'm sure that its resulted in a lot of criminality which could have been avoided if the moral relativism which reigns didnt.

 

[chickpea]

sometimes I wish I had religion, religious people seem happier to me and it must be nice to have something bigger to rely on and believe in. but I just can't do it, I'd be lying to myself because I just see huge flaws in logic in all of them and it seems like a big joke. ignorance is bliss I guess.

 

[Aquarelle]

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if-UzXIQ5vw"]I lost it[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Firelie]

I’m not religious for a number of reasons.

I was brought up in a non-denominational Christian household. We moved around a lot when I was a kid, so I got to witness a lot of strange church things as we tried out new ones in new areas (strange things like “the spirit” knocking people over during worship, people speaking gibberish, raising of hands, etc). I was one of those annoying kids who always wanted to know why things happened, and the answer was always the same: “the spirit” would compel people to do them. I thought I was defective for a while, since “the spirit” never compelled me to do anything strange like that. I never really felt like I fit in at church and I didn’t really believe in the Bible, but the last straw was when there was an enormous church sex scandal involving the pastor and a lot of higher up people and I realized…people like this made this religion. People who can’t control themselves, people who are greedy, people who are violent, people who like power more than anything. PEOPLE wrote the book that everyone thinks is truth, not God. Why should I believe everything in that book?

Anyway, aside from that realization, there was always a lot of stuff that just doesn’t make sense about religion. For instance, why would any deity give people free choice, then penalize them for choosing the wrong thing? That’s like me asking you if you want pizza or salad for dinner, then telling you you’re WRONG and you get NOTHING TO EAT FOR THE REST OF ETERNITY if you happen to choose pizza over salad. Makes no sense to me.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I think religion is all bad. It’s useful for keeping some people in line who otherwise may not be, and it makes a lot of people feel happy and secure, but I personally just don’t need it in my life. I’m way more happy and secure now than I ever was when I was practicing religion.

 

[swordpath]

Don't see any reason to believe in a God, and like Whatever said; if there is one out there, he's an asshole.

 

[ICUP]

Don't see any reason to believe in a God, and like Whatever said; if there is one out there, he's an asshole.

Yes. I've said this before, many, many times. An unfair, unreasonable, entitled asshole.

 

[Beargryllz]

Alright, just wasnt sure you thought you could make things up as you go along. I used to think that way too. It was called my adolescence.

What does this mean

 

[Beargryllz]

sometimes I wish I had religion, religious people seem happier to me and it must be nice to have something bigger to rely on and believe in. but I just can't do it, I'd be lying to myself because I just see huge flaws in logic in all of them and it seems like a big joke. ignorance is bliss I guess.

The simpler the religion, the less opportunity for flaw

This is what makes Jesus so compelling and attractive, even to non-Christians

"Treat others as you would wish to be treated"

It is so simple and easy to live by. You don't even need pages and pages of nonsense and hypocrisy

Look for ideas that you can accept and believe in

 

[Stanton Moore]

because two alter boys beat me up when I was 6