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  1. #81
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Incidentially, as I think about this thread, is there not a problem of definition going on here? Beyond the whole organised vs. disorganised or unorganised thing, is religion what you believe, what you do, where you're from or where you belong?

  2. #82
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    An honest assessment of religion would find that it fares reasonably well in comparison to modern political ideologies, where religion had healing, hospitality and beginnings of medicine modern political ideologies had the atrocities of Mengala (spelling) or his soviet equivalents, even in the US and Sweden after the war there were widespread experimentation upon ethnic minorities.
    Some modern religions compare favorably with their political contemporaries; others do not, which adds hypocrisy to their "sins" since they usually claim to be answering to some higher standard. Saying that the catholic church of medieval and renaissance times was no worse than the civil establishments of its day similarly is no accolade. It was the political correctness of its day, and only pardoned the likes of Galileo in the 1980s, and acknowledged the excesses of the inquisition even more recently. As we say now about politicians, it's not just the original crime, but also the lying/coverup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The same can be said for any of the other instances you mention, if you want to talk about clerical abuse and child abuse, that did happen, often with the collusion of so called "respectable society" and the secular/public authorities, thankfully the status of women and children has been gradually changing and so have social attitudes condoning that sort of thing but those are not simple religious attitudes among religions people and truly religious people would be just as conscientious as any other hater of that kind of thing.

    Dont hate while you're creating these morals from scratch. Good luck.
    No thanks to organized religion for the highlighted. If christians (and jews and muslims) are becoming more tolerant of diversity and respectful of human rights, it is because they are finally learning to see beyond the literal teachings of their books to the broader "truths" contained.

    I don't know why you persist in describing morals as "from scratch" if they do not come from the bible, or catholicism, or some other religion of the book. This is not only insulting, but inaccurate as well. There are many sources for moral values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    And yet to many modern mindsets "Do not allow a religious to live" makes more sense.
    "Do not allow a religious to foist his faith on others, or to mistreat others for theirs" makes most sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I understand why people aren't religious, and I get it, but a lot of these answers are near the same as saying, "I don't like hamburgers because they have ketchup on them, and I'm allergic to the seasame seeds all stuck on top of the bun."
    Some people don't like hamburgers because they are vegetarians. They simply get their nourishment elsewhere. Same with faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Incidentially, as I think about this thread, is there not a problem of definition going on here? Beyond the whole organised vs. disorganised or unorganised thing, is religion what you believe, what you do, where you're from or where you belong?
    Dictionary definitions mention a system of beliefs, often coupled with an established organization and set of practices. To me, the key difference between religion and spirituality is that the first is communal and preexisting, while the second is personal and unique to the believer. The first enables us to share faith experiences with others, while the second guides our individual journey. Often, perhaps ideally, both work hand in hand, as when an individual finds a religious group that resonates with his/her personal spirituality. Neither requires the presence of the other, though. Magic P's comment below is also relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Now, strictly from the social perspective, I don't get involved in religion because there's nothing a religious based community can do that a non-religious community can't, and I'd rather find a community not based on stuff I don't believe in and fond of weird rules like not allowing gay marriage.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #83
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Some people don't like hamburgers because they are vegetarians. They simply get their nourishment elsewhere. Same with faith.
    Those aren't the comments that I was commenting on. It makes perfect sense to me that people just don't need feel the need for religion, especially in todays society. But people don't say that, they start commenting specifically on he beliefs and acts in certain Christian denomenations. It's just besides the point of the question.

  4. #84
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I grew up in a strongly religious environment, but am no longer religious for a couple of reasons.

    I find it problematic to have a system of thought that is based on unfalsifiable premises because this makes it impossible to revise one's thinking based on new information. I see unconditional faith as more of a danger than a moral because it cannot correct itself when applied wrongly. Human beings are flawed in their reasoning and much of our "objectivism" today is not even close to what it claims. Our society embraces a great deal of fractured reasoning that gets from point A to B, but lacks a holistic approach necessary to understanding a system impacted by many layered and complex factors. Our perceptions can be tested and demonstrated to be distorted. Because of all of this my focus is on humility of thought and on embracing doubt and uncertainty to be continually testing and retesting my assumptions and the systems of ideas I build on those assumptions.

    From a social perspective there are both gains and losses to rejecting religion, being a belief in a higher power or any mystical thinking. I am connected to a number of social groups either as family or coworkers in which it would help me connect better if I embraced their religious and/or mystical thinking. Forming social cohesion is likely one of the primary purposes of this sort of thinking. There are also significant social problems that result from this thinking. The first and worst is confusing the will of a higher power with self-will. People use a belief in a higher power to extend ego and social control and can distort a sense of personal entitlement. This can motivate hurtful behaviors to the extreme of cruelty.

    The second social problem is that judgmental mindsets appear to be directly related to how superior and persecuted a group feels. When an "Us vs. Them" dynamic like this occurs it becomes necessary to judge others in order to determine who to reject and accept as equally superior to others and as safe. I have found most religious groups to function with these dynamics and so I avoid them as groups, but connect as individuals when given opportunity. It is not only religious groups as it is that sense of superiority and persecution alone that creates hyper-judgmental mindsets.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #85
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    The sorts of bigotry and naive thinking I see you guys reserve for religion really makes me despair. Anyway, I'm not going to provide the encouragenent to retrenching your ignorance that you need. If you have courage and one day decide to do a little unblinkered research I know you'll think again a lot of what you've posted in this thread. Although there's no one will persuade you of that ahead of time.

  6. #86
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    morality =/= religion by any means... My grandfather was, by the definition of perfect strangers, the kind of guy who would inconvenience himself to help anyone without a second thought...he was not a religious man. My father does the same and is not religious. I try, I hold myself to strict standards and, though the first to speak my mind bluntly, I will wear myself down to make sure that everyone has a fair chance... And I started this fucking thread! It's hypothesized that religion was created as an early attempt at codifying and standardizing social mores...it doesn't cause them! Lol
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #87
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I should clarify that most, if not all, of my post does not apply exclusively to religion. Ideologies of any sort that have unquestioned assumptions and that create strong "Us. vs. Them" dynamics can tend to function in the ways I described. I also wish topics like this could be discussed without the assumption that people believe what they desire to be true. There is a great deal of my own conclusions that I wish were not true and I would feel happy to be wrong.

    It is especially important in discussions about the validity of religion to realize that people can be moral, compassionate, and contribute to the well being of all living things within the context of religion as well as outside of it.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #88
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Civilization and Religion

    There has never been a civilization not based on a religion. So to understand our own civilization, it is necessary to understand our own religion.

    And to understand another civilization, it is also necessary to understand their religion.

    So a civilized person understands their own religion, and the religions of other civilizations.

  9. #89
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    There has never been a civilization not based on a religion. So to understand our own civilization, it is necessary to understand our own religion.

    And to understand another civilization, it is also necessary to understand their religion.

    So a civilized person understands their own religion, and the religions of other civilizations.
    If that were how things really worked, we would be much more civilized than we are. Too many people won't even try to understand different perspectives, religious or otherwise, and too many people claim to follow a religion but do not really understand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I find it problematic to have a system of thought that is based on unfalsifiable premises because this makes it impossible to revise one's thinking based on new information. I see unconditional faith as more of a danger than a moral because it cannot correct itself when applied wrongly. Human beings are flawed in their reasoning and much of our "objectivism" today is not even close to what it claims. Our society embraces a great deal of fractured reasoning that gets from point A to B, but lacks a holistic approach necessary to understanding a system impacted by many layered and complex factors.
    I agree with much of what you have written, but do not see unfalsifiable premises as a weakness of religion. The problem is the unconditionality that you mention. One can revise religious or moral ideas on the basis of new information that is subjective and cannot be falsified. Often this information is simply the belief or practices of others, and the "good" results that come from it, "good" being a very subjective judgment. If one follows a religion (or moral code) unconditionally, however, it is not open to question or scrutiny of any sort. This is the problem.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #90
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Because my prayers always fell upon deaf ears.
    Because morality is a historical construction, therefore there is no way for a God to judge people with impartial parameters.
    Because the concept of soul is 100% irrational.
    Because a lot of deaths were caused by religious beliefs.
    Because the catholic church has an awful view of what's ''wrong''. And this isn't new. Yesterday it was heliocentrism, today it is birth control. Thank God they don't have power to burn everyone that is using birth control.
    That's it, for now.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

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