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  1. #71
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    If you were stranded on a road in the middle of nowhere and someone stopped to pick you up, would you prefer that person had a strong faith in God and believed in following high moral standards, or would you prefer that person believed that God was a myth, that morals were all relative and that there was no one to answer to for their behavior?

    I ask this question because I am always amazed that people think that "religion" has brought more bad than good to the world.
    If you were stranded on a road in the middle of nowhere and someone stopped to pick you up, would you prefer that person had a strong faith in God and believed that you were going to hell for not believeing what they did or that you were unAmerican, or would you prefer that person believed that God was a myth, that morals were all relative and that thi was the only life we had so it would be in our best interest to make life worth living for ourselves and those around us?

    I ask this question because I am always amazed that people think that "religion" somehow makes a person inherently good or that morality is something only religious people can understand or know.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  2. #72
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    If you were stranded on a road in the middle of nowhere and someone stopped to pick you up, would you prefer that person had a strong faith in God and believed in following high moral standards, or would you prefer that person believed that God was a myth, that morals were all relative and that there was no one to answer to for their behavior?

    I ask this question because I am always amazed that people think that "religion" has brought more bad than good to the world.
    Um, as long as they could get me to civilization, I wouldn't even care or think about it. I had no idea that without religion, a person can't have morals. As far as religion bringing more bad than good, the list of horrific things that organized religion is responsible for or responsible for condoning is very convincing. If you were looking for a business to do a service for you, you would read reviews, see if they had ever been reported or sued, talk to people who have had experience with this company. That information would determine your confidence or lack of confidence and ultimately the decision to hire or not. Genocide, condoning genocide with silence, rape, murder, theft, child abuse and oppression and torture.....that's more than enough to keep me far away.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  3. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Um, as long as they could get me to civilization, I wouldn't even care or think about it. I had no idea that without religion, a person can't have morals. As far as religion bringing more bad than good, the list of horrific things that organized religion is responsible for or responsible for condoning is very convincing. If you were looking for a business to do a service for you, you would read reviews, see if they had ever been reported or sued, talk to people who have had experience with this company. That information would determine your confidence or lack of confidence and ultimately the decision to hire or not. Genocide, condoning genocide with silence, rape, murder, theft, child abuse and oppression and torture.....that's more than enough to keep me far away.
    Are you sure about all that? I write reviews and I know how many problems there are with bias and validity, with something like religion, which for much of the time you're talking about was a vassel, unfortunately, for politics there is much, much more room for inaccuracy, error and outright propaganda.

    The crimes of religion where often exaggerated from day one through schism and sectarianism, each seeking to draw support, motivate existing supporters and demonise their opposition, then with the ascendency of secularism and atheism those "facts" where regurgitated, added to and repeated with much more vehemence.

    An honest assessment of religion would find that it fares reasonably well in comparison to modern political ideologies, where religion had healing, hospitality and beginnings of medicine modern political ideologies had the atrocities of Mengala (spelling) or his soviet equivalents, even in the US and Sweden after the war there were widespread experimentation upon ethnic minorities.

    Religion is given a very unfair treatment in the folk memory, often because people have highly personal reasons and have projected upon religion something they dislike, often with good reason, perhaps they've found people who represent well their worst suspiscions and decide that their generalisations are in fact true.

    I dont actually proselytise or preach or feel any need to evangelise when it comes to religion, not at all, I dont talk about religion much in person because there is such variance, from people who give it too much credit, to those who believe its entirely discredited. It disappoints me when I hear old hackneyed myths peddled from people I otherwise respect though.

  4. #74
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Are you sure about all that? I write reviews and I know how many problems there are with bias and validity, with something like religion, which for much of the time you're talking about was a vassel, unfortunately, for politics there is much, much more room for inaccuracy, error and outright propaganda.

    The crimes of religion where often exaggerated from day one through schism and sectarianism, each seeking to draw support, motivate existing supporters and demonise their opposition, then with the ascendency of secularism and atheism those "facts" where regurgitated, added to and repeated with much more vehemence.

    An honest assessment of religion would find that it fares reasonably well in comparison to modern political ideologies, where religion had healing, hospitality and beginnings of medicine modern political ideologies had the atrocities of Mengala (spelling) or his soviet equivalents, even in the US and Sweden after the war there were widespread experimentation upon ethnic minorities.

    Religion is given a very unfair treatment in the folk memory, often because people have highly personal reasons and have projected upon religion something they dislike, often with good reason, perhaps they've found people who represent well their worst suspiscions and decide that their generalisations are in fact true.

    I dont actually proselytise or preach or feel any need to evangelise when it comes to religion, not at all, I dont talk about religion much in person because there is such variance, from people who give it too much credit, to those who believe its entirely discredited. It disappoints me when I hear old hackneyed myths peddled from people I otherwise respect though.

    I'm curious what you disagree with or consider to be a myth. The Inquisition wasn't real? The Albigensian Crusade wasn't real? Child abuse and rape never occurred? I'm not singling out The Roman Catholic church. If I was I would simply have found another religion. I include all organized religion and since one is no less horrific than the other they all get the same treatment from me. I really have more of a problem with a person who thinks you can't have high moral standards without religion. That's ridiculous and offensive.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  5. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I'm curious what you disagree with or consider to be a myth. The Inquisition wasn't real? The Albigensian Crusade wasn't real? Child abuse and rape never occurred? I'm not singling out The Roman Catholic church. If I was I would simply have found another religion. I include all organized religion and since one is no less horrific than the other they all get the same treatment from me. I really have more of a problem with a person who thinks you can't have high moral standards without religion. That's ridiculous and offensive.
    Perhaps it is possible to have morals without religion, I'm not going to speculate on that.

    The inquisition did indeed exist and its crimes where exaggerated, there's a consensus on that now among academic historians and the religious authorities descended from the earlier inquisitorial days have apologised for its excesses. Did you know that the inquisitions power and particularly its deployment of torture paled in comparison with the local or princely powers in most of the areas in which it operated? Did you know that there were many people who operated under its auspices without really being authorised to do so? The true picture is very different from the vague, wicked, wicked people story which is told and retold by religions detractors and opponents.

    The same can be said for any of the other instances you mention, if you want to talk about clerical abuse and child abuse, that did happen, often with the collusion of so called "respectable society" and the secular/public authorities, thankfully the status of women and children has been gradually changing and so have social attitudes condoning that sort of thing but those are not simple religious attitudes among religions people and truly religious people would be just as conscientious as any other hater of that kind of thing.

    For every instance of crimes by religious I could cite a dozen examples to the contrary, I'm from a religious tradition which still honours saints, scholars and martyrs, a lot of them as recently as the second war and the struggles of regular people against capitalism, communism, nazism, fascism and slavery. I'm pretty sure that's going to be a pointless exercise but its good to know your position and just how entrenched it is. Dont hate while you're creating these morals from scratch. Good luck.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    If you were stranded on a road in the middle of nowhere and someone stopped to pick you up, would you prefer that person had a strong faith in God and believed in following high moral standards, or would you prefer that person believed that God was a myth, that morals were all relative and that there was no one to answer to for their behavior?

    I ask this question because I am always amazed that people think that "religion" has brought more bad than good to the world.
    It will depend how literal the person reads the bible. And it would depend how I was perceived.


    A command of Moses:

    “Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepy View Post
    It will depend how literal the person reads the bible. And it would depend how I was perceived.


    A command of Moses:

    “Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)
    And yet to many modern mindsets "Do not allow a religious to live" makes more sense.

    I can understand how this advice from Moses would have made sense, if you're living in a time of superstitious human sacrifices, including infanticide, and you're advising your followers that its the sort of thing you would like to repress, that's before you get into the question of whether or not you believe in any supernatural dimension to life at all.

    The idea that you shouldnt suffer a witch to live provoking horror as it does reflects just how well witchcraft and old religions have fared during their post-modern rehabilitation but they have at least as superstitious a quality as religion, a great deal more than what I would describe as enlightened religion, and for some of their history they where insanely violent and bloody.

    The wicker man wasnt invented for the movie of the same name, the actual sacrifical rite was much more terrifying than the movie depicts, ie a single male virgin getting burnt to death, and the bloody rites of cornish and irish druids and celts were supposed to have been terrible enough to deter Roman invasion and occupation beyond the land of the britons (england), the saying of "beyond the pale" is supposed to refer to this.

  8. #78
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Up to this point, I've seen insufficient evidence of physical/meta-physical premises behind theism and spiritualism, and I have seen evidence that poses a challenge to such a thing. With that, I couldn't believe if I wanted to. But I don't really want to anyway, because I don't get the sense that it would do me any particular good, so why go through the trouble?

    Now, strictly from the social perspective, I don't get involved in religion because there's nothing a religious based community can do that a non-religious community can't, and I'd rather find a community not based on stuff I don't believe in and fond of weird rules like not allowing gay marriage.

    I don't see religion as utilitarian, I see it as vestigial.
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  9. #79
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I understand why people aren't religious, and I get it, but a lot of these answers are near the same as saying, "I don't like hamburgers because they have ketchup on them, and I'm allergic to the seasame seeds all stuck on top of the bun."

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I understand why people aren't religious, and I get it, but a lot of these answers are near the same as saying, "I don't like hamburgers because they have ketchup on them, and I'm allergic to the seasame seeds all stuck on top of the bun."
    True that.

    It seems some how to be a pretty superficial or shallow response to something which is more significant, although that could be a personal thing I guess I've read enough to know that its not unique to me and used to be much more pervasive a phenomenon than this thread alone would make it appear to be.

    Using the burger analogy, in a way or taking it further, its a little like talking to someone who's happily house bound obesce about the joys of running in all weathers or a diet which just satiates (spelling) an appetite and nothing more, its so far removed from their normal, everyday, lived reality as to make no sense really, not even as an aspiration.

    Magic, I kind of see what you're talking about because despite never having fully abandoned my theist beliefs and only experiencing one crisis of the same once (which I understand now as a crisis of faith in some of the proofs of God rather than my faith both in and in the existence of God) that is a view I could have entertained when I was younger and less concerned or compelled by that side of life. What I would say is that there's more strange and unbelieveable or beyond belief stuff in quantum physics or the outer reaches of science, to me, than there appears in religion.

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