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  1. #41
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Do you mean ethically wrong or untrue?
    Ethically wrong

    Who cares if there really is a man in the sky that really does want you to do what he says

    If you cannot accept that being's moral philosophy, why embrace it?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Ethically wrong

    Who cares if there really is a man in the sky that really does want you to do what he says

    If you cannot accept that being's moral philosophy, why embrace it?
    Alright, just wasnt sure you thought you could make things up as you go along. I used to think that way too. It was called my adolescence.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle View Post
    It's not just the stance toward homosexuality. It's a lot of things. I don't have a problem with religion on its own, but blind, unquestioning adherence to it can be problematic. I'm not vilifying or dehumanizing anyone. Quite the opposite, in fact-- religious adherents have brains, and they should use them to think critically about what they're taught in church, not just accept it blindly. Some do, of course, but I would say that at least in the US, the vast majority of the religious right do not. Lark, I know you've thought critically about your beliefs, and although I still disagree with some of the beliefs you hold, I can respect that you have a right to your own opinion.

    As for the Bible thing, again, I think that has to do with critical thinking. You don't believe in all of it, if I understand you correctly. That's exactly how I feel-- some of it is true and relevant, some of it is blatantly wrong. It's just that in the religion I was raised in (Assembly of God) we were taught that you can't pick and choose what parts of God's word you believe, so even now, after having rejected that religion, I have trouble with the idea of only agreeing with some parts. That's really more where my conflict comes from... the issue with homosexuality is only ONE of the things that the Bible teaches that I believe is blatantly wrong. There are many others. I don't know if what you say is correct, that religion isn't historically responsible for the taboo against homosexuality. You are better versed in religious history than I am, so I'll take your word for it. But be that as it may, I don't find history particularly relevant to this argument-- some (many) religions nowadays specifically teach that homosexuality is wrong, and today is what concerns me.

    From my early religious education: God exists and is perfect and all powerful. He doesn't make mistakes-->The Bible is God's Word. It was written by men, but dictated by God.-->God wrote the Bible and he doesn't make mistakes or change his mind, therefore everything in the Bible is and always will be true and relevant.

    My critical thinking: Some teachings in the Bible are true and relevant; others are ethically wrong.-->Therefore, the Bible is not infallible nor timeless.-->Therefore God must not be perfect.-->Can an imperfect God really exist?

    See what I mean?

    EDIt: To add this part:
    As for the "I'm right, you're wrong" thing, my line of work is all about teaching respect for cultural difference. I am, again, all-or-nothing on that one. It's easy to respect that people of other cultures like different foods and wear different clothes. It's a bit harder to respect their different way of going about education, personal distance and or hygiene practices, etc. It's really difficult to respect the treatment of women, systems of justice that are drastically different from mine (sanctioned murder, etc), but again, my personal code of ethics and beliefs doesn't allow me the arrogance of saying where the line between "Different" and "wrong" is. Of course I don't CONDONE the treatment of women in Afghanistan, or sanctioned murder, or things like that. I don't respect the practices themselves. But I respect the right of a culture to determine what is or is not appropriate for themselves.

    For example, in the US, we have decided as a culture that driving on the right side of the road is appropriate for ourselves, so our traffic laws were based upon that. I understand you do things differently in the UK and Australia. It feels totally foreign and unnatural to me when I'm in those places, and I have to be really careful not to get hit by cars when crossing the street, but I'm not going to tell you it's wrong.
    Yeah, all that goes double for you hippies!

    You really got to start driving properly, I've heard about ex-pats struggling with it as much as you guys letting dudes marry dudes, like its prison or something

  4. #44
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I would conclude more readily that therefore the Bible is not in fact God's word, it is the creation of humans, some of whom were truly inspired, some of whom were simply reflecting the baser customs or even instincts of their time and culture.
    How do you know that's not what's going on with the critics of the bible? Seriously, I think that in the future, provided there is one, that people will be shocked at the sorts of things people where willing to believe because of political pressure to do so.

  5. #45
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post

    You really got to start driving properly


    EDIT: Also, I don't like the default wink. I like this one better.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  6. #46
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Ethically wrong

    Who cares if there really is a man in the sky that really does want you to do what he says

    If you cannot accept that being's moral philosophy, why embrace it?
    Alright, just wasnt sure you thought you could make things up as you go along. I used to think that way too. It was called my adolescence.
    I agree with Beargryllz that much of mainstream religion is ethically wrong, but also consider it untrue in a factual sense. Its truth lies in its lessons and symbolism, which many adherents cannot fathom.

    There is a middle ground between blindly accepting the edicts of some book, or church, or religiouis leader; and "making things up as you go along". It is developing a core of internally consistent, externally workable values, and then examining and revising them as you learn through life's experiences.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #47
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    How do you know that's not what's going on with the critics of the bible? Seriously, I think that in the future, provided there is one, that people will be shocked at the sorts of things people where willing to believe because of political pressure to do so.
    Some critics of the bible may do this when promoting their own theological or philosophical points of view. Direct criticism of the bible, however, will be bible-focused, and will stand or fall on the facts and arguments it contains. I have seen poorly supported and downright silly critiques of the bible, as well as very careful and well-documented ones. Any person with rudimentary critical analysis skills would have no trouble telling them apart.

    People are people, with all the human virtues and failings. I simply put the bible into the category of human output, not divine output. That means both the bible writers and the bible critics are on an equal footing. Both are subject to the same criticisms, and neither one can claim divine authorship.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #48
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle View Post


    EDIT: Also, I don't like the default wink. I like this one better.
    Stop otherizing me Auarella, I'll totally have to beat your ass if you keep it up!

  9. #49
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Some critics of the bible may do this when promoting their own theological or philosophical points of view. Direct criticism of the bible, however, will be bible-focused, and will stand or fall on the facts and arguments it contains. I have seen poorly supported and downright silly critiques of the bible, as well as very careful and well-documented ones. Any person with rudimentary critical analysis skills would have no trouble telling them apart.

    People are people, with all the human virtues and failings. I simply put the bible into the category of human output, not divine output. That means both the bible writers and the bible critics are on an equal footing. Both are subject to the same criticisms, and neither one can claim divine authorship.
    Unlike most of the citations or anti-citations the bible itself has got loads of passages about that sort of behaviour and it condemns it, Jesus was all about trying to set the record straight about how the law givers of his day had made God's gifts into a rod for their and everyone elses back.

    I also dont believe at all that the religions are unethical, even those which are scripturally limited are still a dialogue and reflect change in historic time. Like I said before, what is todays "WTF they believed that?!" becomes tommorrows "WTF they abandoned that?!", wait and see.

  10. #50
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Unlike most of the citations or anti-citations the bible itself has got loads of passages about that sort of behaviour and it condemns it, Jesus was all about trying to set the record straight about how the law givers of his day had made God's gifts into a rod for their and everyone elses back.

    I also dont believe at all that the religions are unethical, even those which are scripturally limited are still a dialogue and reflect change in historic time. Like I said before, what is todays "WTF they believed that?!" becomes tommorrows "WTF they abandoned that?!", wait and see.
    My criticism isn't about Jesus, but then Jesus is not the bible. In fact, the bible does not even include all the information we have about Jesus. I would not claim all religions are unethical; perhaps not even that any religion was entirely unethical. I do say that any religion based upon blanket and uncritical adherance to a book (any book) will contain significant unethical elements, simply because the book has not yet been written, and will probably never be written, that is truly infallible.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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