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  1. #111
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You should expect me to be right about things by now.
    I should, and it is rather disappointing that here you are not, especially because you have made sound contributions on many threads, and I often agree with your perspective.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #112
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Is the opinion that morality can only exist within a religious framework based on an underlying assumption that it has to be connected to a reward/punishment system? If God or karma doesn't reward good acts and punish bad ones, then there can be no motivation for good? I would propose that the reward/punishment motivations replaces the motivation for compassion itself. Moral motivations can exist in conjunction with reward/punishment, but perhaps it is more in spite of it than in conjunction with it? Or maybe it functions as a first step to move people in the direction of moral reasoning.

    I would propose that the "reward" for a compassionate act exists within the act itself. It does not need a metaphysical or pragmatic reward when operating on a higher level of moral reasoning. Even if it is forgotten by everyone, even oneself, and unacknowledged socially, and unrewarded with any promise of heaven, a compassionate act still has an infinite value and reward in the exact moment it is offered.

    By breaking down a sense of "Us vs. Them" and instead realizing that we are all subject to our environment and genetics, it is possible to let go of a sense of judgment and punishment. The brilliant, successful, wealthy, philanthropist is what humanity looks like when subjected to a certain set of conditions, and the homeless drunk who is mentally ill and abusive is what humanity looks like when subjected to another set of conditions. In this way understanding replaces judgment. There is no one deserving eternal torture and punishment from an all powerful being. There is no person who is inherently "evil" or deserving of destruction. We are all humanity and we are all of infinite intrinsic value regardless of how our lives play out. As a society we can care about the well being of all and create boundaries that protect us from one another, but this can be done with the best interest of each individual and with a sense of compassion and non-judgment.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #113
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Is the opinion that morality can only exist within a religious framework based on an underlying assumption that it has to be connected to a reward/punishment system? If God or karma doesn't reward good acts and punish bad ones, then there can be no motivation for good? I would propose that the reward/punishment motivations replaces the motivation for compassion itself. Moral motivations can exist in conjunction with reward/punishment, but perhaps it is more in spite of it than in conjunction with it? Or maybe it functions as a first step to move people in the direction of moral reasoning.

    I would propose that the "reward" for a compassionate act exists within the act itself. It does not need a metaphysical or pragmatic reward when operating on a higher level of moral reasoning. Even if it is forgotten by everyone, even oneself, and unacknowledged socially, and unrewarded with any promise of heaven, a compassionate act still has an infinite value and reward in the exact moment it is offered.

    By breaking down a sense of "Us vs. Them" and instead realizing that we are all subject to our environment and genetics, it is possible to let go of a sense of judgment and punishment. The brilliant, successful, wealthy, philanthropist is what humanity looks like when subjected to a certain set of conditions, and the homeless drunk who is mentally ill and abusive is what humanity looks like when subjected to another set of conditions. In this way understanding replaces judgment. There is no one deserving eternal torture and punishment from an all powerful being. There is no person who is inherently "evil" or deserving of destruction. We are all humanity and we are all of infinite intrinsic value regardless of how our lives play out. As a society we can care about the well being of all and create boundaries that protect us from one another, but this can be done with the best interest of each individual and with a sense of compassion and non-judgment.
    Very advanced way of thinking. Far ahead of current humanity I fear tho
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #114
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    I enjoy masturbation too much.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  5. #115
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I would propose that the reward/punishment motivations replaces the motivation for compassion itself. Moral motivations can exist in conjunction with reward/punishment, but perhaps it is more in spite of it than in conjunction with it? Or maybe it functions as a first step to move people in the direction of moral reasoning.
    Doing something to avoid punishment or to gain a reward is one of the lowest forms of motivation. Pleasing someone one cares about (parent, teacher, God) is a bit higher, but still externally driven. Making life run more smoothly is a common motivation for basic civility and courtesy. I often act in such a way as to make the world the kind of place I want to live in, I suppose this is another way of saying to promote my values.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #116
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Doing something to avoid punishment or to gain a reward is one of the lowest forms of motivation. Pleasing someone one cares about (parent, teacher, God) is a bit higher, but still externally driven. Making life run more smoothly is a common motivation for basic civility and courtesy. I often act in such a way as to make the world the kind of place I want to live in, I suppose this is another way of saying to promote my values.
    That is true that concepts of morality are also connected to relational motivations as well as the reward/punishment - in varying degrees depending on the religion and the individual interpretation of the religion. That also tends to occur on two levels - the theological level of obeying and having a relationship with god and then the social level of relationships and punishment/reward for staying in line with the requirements of the social group.

    I spent well over three decades inside religion - all my social interaction, my family, even my employment and education for many of those years centered around religion. This was not just immersion, but continual study of this core religion as well as comparisons with other religions. I'm still what could be called a somewhat closet agnostic/atheist because repercussions would be problematic. I spent so many years studying religion and defending it as well, but there were certain aspects I could not see until I became an outsider.

    If you have spent your life inside and have never experienced religion as an "apostate", there is one level that can be impossible to see. On the inside there is the compassion of Jesus and the hope of eternal peace with loved ones which requires a process of deep grieving to let go of. There are also anxieties about eternal punishments and how that effects the way specific people/sinners are viewed, judged, and valued in the present concrete world. The way the "lost", the "backsliders", and "apostates" are viewed is with great distrust. The assumption that you cannot be moral outside the religion, or that you are not "born again", or even "alive in Christ" makes you something less than fully human.

    People who have loved and trusted you all their life are torn between the requirements of theology for how you must be viewed, and their own personal history of love and trust for you. It is difficult to reconcile without forcing the outsider into the box of "rebellion" or "distraction with the cares of the world". If you are conscientious and only desire peace within oneself and with others, you make no sense as an outsider to religion. You must be horrible things and you will be called those horrible things by people on the inside. Some will do it out of certainty and others out of confusion. And in religions where you are viewed to be destined to be tormented forever and yet are expected to not be offended by that in any way, but to make every allowance for that belief and not reciprocate with any negativity, the potential for a healthy relationship is ruined. It would be a rare atheist/agnostic who would ever see a believer of any system as deserving of such a horrific fate. They might be rude and make fun or even be downright mean, but they would never cross that line.

    I would not personally want to take someone away from their religion because people are too complex and it is too deeply intertwined and it takes too much effort and even grief to let go. That makes it a personal choice that comes from inside which should be respected. I would never impose that on someone, but I would ask each person inside a religion to respond to those outside based on your model of compassion who for Christianity is Christ, an advocate for humanity and not a punisher.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #117
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    That is true that concepts of morality are also connected to relational motivations as well as the reward/punishment - in varying degrees depending on the religion and the individual interpretation of the religion. That also tends to occur on two levels - the theological level of obeying and having a relationship with god and then the social level of relationships and punishment/reward for staying in line with the requirements of the social group.

    I spent well over three decades inside religion - all my social interaction, my family, even my employment and education for many of those years centered around religion. This was not just immersion, but continual study of this core religion as well as comparisons with other religions. I'm still what could be called a somewhat closet agnostic/atheist because repercussions would be problematic. I spent so many years studying religion and defending it as well, but there were certain aspects I could not see until I became an outsider.

    If you have spent your life inside and have never experienced religion as an "apostate", there is one level that can be impossible to see. On the inside there is the compassion of Jesus and the hope of eternal peace with loved ones which requires a process of deep grieving to let go of. There are also anxieties about eternal punishments and how that effects the way specific people/sinners are viewed, judged, and valued in the present concrete world. The way the "lost", the "backsliders", and "apostates" are viewed is with great distrust. The assumption that you cannot be moral outside the religion, or that you are not "born again", or even "alive in Christ" makes you something less than fully human.

    People who have loved and trusted you all their life are torn between the requirements of theology for how you must be viewed, and their own personal history of love and trust for you. It is difficult to reconcile without forcing the outsider into the box of "rebellion" or "distraction with the cares of the world". If you are conscientious and only desire peace within oneself and with others, you make no sense as an outsider to religion. You must be horrible things and you will be called those horrible things by people on the inside. Some will do it out of certainty and others out of confusion. And in religions where you are viewed to be destined to be tormented forever and yet are expected to not be offended by that in any way, but to make every allowance for that belief and not reciprocate with any negativity, the potential for a healthy relationship is ruined. It would be a rare atheist/agnostic who would ever see a believer of any system as deserving of such a horrific fate. They might be rude and make fun or even be downright mean, but they would never cross that line.

    I would not personally want to take someone away from their religion because people are too complex and it is too deeply intertwined and it takes too much effort and even grief to let go. That makes it a personal choice that comes from inside which should be respected. I would never impose that on someone, but I would ask each person inside a religion to respond to those outside based on your model of compassion who for Christianity is Christ, an advocate for humanity and not a punisher.


    Incredibly well said.

  8. #118
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I am honestly somewhat nervous about morality based on divine authority. To me it sounds flimsy and weak. It is the same as doing something because your parents told you to, or because fearless leader told you to. I often wonder about people who follow such a moral code, would they become immoral if they lost their faith in God? I know I have a moral code that I formed without ever believing in God, so it makes no difference to me. But for them, God is the bottom line, can they be moral without it?

    When I've heard it asked how someone can have morality without God, I've thought that it was a much bigger point about them than it was about atheists. They implied that they couldn't figure out how or why to have morals without God, and that frightens me. To actually answer that question myself, it's hard not to throw my hands up in incredulity. All around are people who can feel pleasure and pain, and there are physical structures which are deeply fascinating and beautiful, and right there is someone asking me how I could have a code against violence and destruction without believing in some big man up in the astral plane. It makes no sense to me.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  9. #119
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post

    When I've heard it asked how someone can have morality without God, I've thought that it was a much bigger point about them than it was about atheists. They implied that they couldn't figure out how or why to have morals without God, and that frightens me.
    I feel the same way

  10. #120
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I spent well over three decades inside religion - all my social interaction, my family, even my employment and education for many of those years centered around religion. This was not just immersion, but continual study of this core religion as well as comparisons with other religions.
    I am jealous.

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