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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Atheism doesn't ask anything and neither does belief in deities. They're starting points. The difference I see is that when you build up from atheism, you aren't limited by someone else's notions of good or bad, whereas with a specific religion as a starting point, you either agree with someone else or are forced to come up with convoluted justifications for why the religion actually should be interpreted your way.

    I am confident my moral system asks at least as much of me as any religion asks of its followers. And I had to come up with it on my own.
    I can understand that the mindset which has dropped the notion that the world is the centre of the universe for the one that man is would find an existential and ethic code that's "all your own work" vital but I dont see things that way, I drive a car which I didnt build by hand, I use a factory built laptop, I dont need to invent things myself to find their basic utility and function.

    For me, and I understand you dont feel this way but anyway, for me the existence of a deity is a point of fact, its like gravity, I dont need to discover gravity through my own process of experimentation to know it exists, even though, given you're perspective, it would be someone elses idea.

    So how are the precepts real or physical? I'm not trying to be a dick; I'm really interested.

    Also, how is the self not the be-all end-all? It is the basis of everything you will ever experience.
    I would ask rather how are they not.

    The self is not the be all and end all, in fact I find that idea more than a little disgusting.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Doesn't it provide many useful examples of what a god could be?

    I would consider the religions of the world to be more inspirational and less harmful.
    That I would agree with.

  3. #103
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Doesn't it provide many useful examples of what a god could be?

    I would consider the religions of the world to be more inspirational and less harmful.
    Yeah, of course. And if you consider religion in terms of "all religions" it's not so bad either. "A" religion and following actually feels restrictive and almost feels morally wrong to me, (in a backwards kind of way.)
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  4. #104
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I can understand that the mindset which has dropped the notion that the world is the centre of the universe for the one that man is would find an existential and ethic code that's "all your own work" vital but I dont see things that way, I drive a car which I didnt build by hand, I use a factory built laptop, I dont need to invent things myself to find their basic utility and function.
    I'm not saying I wasn't influenced by other people's thoughts and ideas; that would be pretty ludicrous. I'm just saying I personally determined the utility each tenet of my moral code. Religious people could potentially do this as well, but they have less incentive to, as the entire moral structure is already in place for them.

    For me, and I understand you dont feel this way but anyway, for me the existence of a deity is a point of fact, its like gravity, I dont need to discover gravity through my own process of experimentation to know it exists, even though, given you're perspective, it would be someone elses idea.
    I don't see how the existence of a deity is a fact like gravity. You can see gravity all the time -- there is no other explanation that would account for the forces that are clearly visible. A computational account of the mind, on the other hand, can explain our experience. A game theory account of morals can explain the origin of certain ethical systems. Evolution can explain the difference between our species and others, etc.

    I would ask rather how are they not.
    There is nothing "out there" (except maybe other people's opinions) that tells us how we should act. Our actions are determined by the computer-code of our brain given the inputs of the senses.

    The self is not the be all and end all, in fact I find that idea more than a little disgusting.
    But the fact that you find it disgusting IS the self. The fact that you care about other people IS the self.

    I care about other people a lot. That is a property of ME.

  5. #105
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Yeah, of course. And if you consider religion in terms of "all religions" it's not so bad either. "A" religion and following actually feels restrictive and almost feels morally wrong to me, (in a backwards kind of way.)
    Oh, definitely. It would be silly to follow only one religion exclusively.

  6. #106
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Oh, definitely. It would be silly to follow only one religion exclusively.
    That's a stretch, too.. I'm just one who feels like values/ religion should be very personalized to the user. It's like I know there is something to organized religion if not just for a sense of community and support and all the other things that go with just worshiping together. (Regardless of the details of that worship.) But for me, I don't understand God very well through that medium, it just doesn't work well. I'm a bit lazy first of all, but second of all, found that I made great strides with my value system just by letting it go. It's like, I'm an agnostic, but the further I get from religion, the greater capacity I have had for believing and feeling spiritually connected to the universe.

    Something different could be true for someone else, and as long as it's working,it's not silly to me. It's just silly to blindly and fearfully follow religions without giving a second thought to the spiritual side of things. But we all know that.
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  7. #107
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    That's a stretch, too.. I'm just one who feels like values/ religion should be very personalized to the user. It's like I know there is something to organized religion if not just for a sense of community and support and all the other things that go with just worshiping together. (Regardless of the details of that worship.) But for me, I don't understand God very well through that medium, it just doesn't work well. I'm a bit lazy first of all, but second of all, found that I made great strides with my value system just by letting it go. It's like, I'm an agnostic, but the further I get from religion, the greater capacity I have had for believing and feeling spiritually connected to the universe.

    Something different could be true for someone else, and as long as it's working,it's not silly to me. It's just silly to blindly and fearfully follow religions without giving a second thought to the spiritual side of things. But we all know that.
    It is a stretch, but I would feel comfortable saying that few specific beliefs or philosophies will answer a person's questions entirely. If they could, I might worry that that individual has not faced enough questions.

  8. #108
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I can understand that the mindset which has dropped the notion that the world is the centre of the universe for the one that man is would find an existential and ethic code that's "all your own work" vital but I dont see things that way, I drive a car which I didnt build by hand, I use a factory built laptop, I dont need to invent things myself to find their basic utility and function.

    For me, and I understand you dont feel this way but anyway, for me the existence of a deity is a point of fact, its like gravity, I dont need to discover gravity through my own process of experimentation to know it exists, even though, given you're perspective, it would be someone elses idea.
    You are doing it again.

    Moral codes and values that are not based on a religion are not "all your own work". They are not made up from scratch. They are not developed without regard to anyone or anything else. Religion, including your religion, is not the only source of or inspiration for morals, values, ethics, and spiritual principles.

    Neither man nor the world is the center of the universe. You don't need to invent something yourself to find its basic utility, but if you expect it to serve you well, you need to make at least some attempt to understand it. You might even learn how to troubleshoot it so you are not at others' mercy when it fails to function as expected.

    Similarly, you don't need to discover gravity yourself to know it exists, but you need to study it yourself to understand it and to know how to work with it. God is not much different. If my only experience of God comes through reading about other people's "experiments", I don't really know God at all.

    Values and spirituality are too important to me to treat as a dumb black box.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Oh, definitely. It would be silly to follow only one religion exclusively.
    I dont think it would be silly, no matter how much you may consider yourself to be following all faiths in reality you're going to be closer to one than any other.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You are doing it again.
    You should expect me to be right about things by now.

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