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  1. #11
    Senior Member Jack427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GatoLoco View Post
    Recent cosmology discoveries suggest the universe is expanding and is also infinite.

    Larence Krauss did a fascinating & humorous lecture on all of this, as well as how the universe had to come from 'nothing' (lol).. on YouTube:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo
    How can that which is already infinite expand?

    But no, you are ignoring enormous evidence to the contrary. Many leading astronomers say the universe is not infinite. I already gave an argument showing it isn't infinite. Show me these "discoveries".

  2. #12
    Junior Member GatoLoco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    Show me these "discoveries".
    The theory is described in the video I linked, as it's a theory based on an observation, based on an observation, etc. etc. It's a growing popular theory, but obviously we're learning more every day. The fact that we now believe neutrinos to travel faster than light, as well as figure the majority of mass of the universe is not found in normal matter... all makes things a little shakey. :-)

    Edit- sorry, did not mean to imply "expanding" from the "getting larger" sense, I mean traveling outwards (as we already know from Big Bang theory) outwards in all directions. The video also explains an interesting theory of astronomers hypothetically millions of years in the future would no longer see other galaxies (as they'd accelerate past visible spectrum shift) and make completely wrong observations on the universe.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Jack427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GatoLoco View Post
    The theory is described in the video I linked, as it's a theory based on an observation, based on an observation, etc. etc. It's a growing popular theory, but obviously we're learning more every day. The fact that we now believe neutrinos to travel faster than light, as well as figure the majority of mass of the universe is not found in normal matter... all makes things a little shakey. :-)

    Edit- sorry, did not mean to imply "expanding" from the "getting larger" sense, I mean traveling outwards (as we already know from Big Bang theory) outwards in all directions. The video also explains an interesting theory of astronomers hypothetically millions of years in the future would no longer see other galaxies (as they'd accelerate past visible spectrum shift) and make completely wrong observations on the universe.
    Scientists are saying that neutrinos do not go faster than light, that the results were not accurate. So no, we do not believe they travel faster than light.

    That video is from 2009, it will be 2012 in a month. We have learned much more since then.

  4. #14
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    I have not seen that show often. I just thought it was some more stupid Japanese robot bullcrap. XD

    Actually, space is not infinite. If space was infinite then there would be an infinite number of stars. Our entire sky would be bright 24/7.Same thing applies to the universe being here forever. Some say the universe is expanding, others say it seems that way because our galaxy is moving.
    Why would infinite space imply infinite matter? Matter+energy is a constant, so it seems finite. But if you were to travel in one direction infinitely, it's not like you'd hit a wall. (The only problem is the universe is expanding faster than light can travel so we'll never know.)

    @Evan- I have wondered the same regarding the transporters and the stargate. I think the soul is tethered to our bodies, when our bodies die the soul is then free.
    What do you mean by "the soul is then free"? I just think the word soul only has descriptive value when one is referring to a specific kind of input/output relation (what we call consciousness). When consciousness goes away (when our bodies die), the "soul" associated with it isn't describing anything anymore -- it stops existing.

    So yeah... I don't think the soul is tethered to anything -- that would imply a causal relationship with physical reality. It's just a way of describing a physical phenomenon.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Jack427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Why would infinite space imply infinite matter? Matter+energy is a constant, so it seems finite. But if you were to travel in one direction infinitely, it's not like you'd hit a wall. (The only problem is the universe is expanding faster than light can travel so we'll never know.)

    What do you mean by "the soul is then free"? I just think the word soul only has descriptive value when one is referring to a specific kind of input/output relation (what we call consciousness). When consciousness goes away (when our bodies die), the "soul" associated with it isn't describing anything anymore -- it stops existing.

    So yeah... I don't think the soul is tethered to anything -- that would imply a causal relationship with physical reality. It's just a way of describing a physical phenomenon.
    He said Universe. Universe means what we can observe and detect in the cosmos. And alot of philosophers and scientists are saying if the universe was infinite, there would be infinite stars.

    I think the soul is an actual entity. It is tethered and connected to our body. Our body is just a vessel. Like a pot of water, when the pot shatters the water escapes.

  6. #16
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    He said Universe. Universe means what we can observe and detect in the cosmos. And alot of philosophers and scientists are saying if the universe was infinite, there would be infinite stars.
    Ah, I guess the universe has a finite amount of space, then, assuming a finite amount of matter/energy.

    I think the soul is an actual entity. It is tethered and connected to our body. Our body is just a vessel. Like a pot of water, when the pot shatters the water escapes.
    Why? How would it be causally related to physical reality?

    I personally think the physical is all that exists. If you think non-physical things are part of reality, you face the problem of explaining how non-physical entities affect physical entities, which just seems too hard.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Jack427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Ah, I guess the universe has a finite amount of space, then, assuming a finite amount of matter/energy.



    Why? How would it be causally related to physical reality?

    I personally think the physical is all that exists. If you think non-physical things are part of reality, you face the problem of explaining how non-physical entities affect physical entities, which just seems too hard.
    I think there are plenty of things and places beyond the physical realm. Some of the places are beyond human understanding. I have some theories on how they interact and such.

  8. #18
    Junior Member GatoLoco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    Scientists are saying that neutrinos do not go faster than light, that the results were not accurate. So no, we do not believe they travel faster than light.
    You say things with such conviction when they are still unknown or the community is split. It would be disingenuous to discount one side without recognition of the other. While we've had multiple tests and analysis of results that suggest faster-than-light neutrinos, there are more tests scheduled to help solidify this or disprove this from the 'accuracy' nay-sayers.

    It's not been ruled out albeit there will always be dissent in the scientific community (as there should be) until there is further peer review.

    I personally believe it's all tied to our consciousness. The concept of linear progression of time seems to be, as you put it, due to our consciousness bound to this vessel. While there is nothing special about that vessel, it locks us onto that path which even complete duplication will not replicate as it's a singular instantiation along that line. The interesting thing to ponder is what is beyond the start and end points of that focus...

  9. #19
    Senior Member Jack427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GatoLoco View Post
    You say things with such conviction when they are still unknown or the community is split. It would be disingenuous to discount one side without recognition of the other. While we've had multiple tests and analysis of results that suggest faster-than-light neutrinos, there are more tests scheduled to help solidify this or disprove this from the 'accuracy' nay-sayers.

    It's not been ruled out albeit there will always be dissent in the scientific community (as there should be) until there is further peer review.

    I personally believe it's all tied to our consciousness. The concept of linear progression of time seems to be, as you put it, due to our consciousness bound to this vessel. While there is nothing special about that vessel, it locks us onto that path which even complete duplication will not replicate as it's a singular instantiation along that line. The interesting thing to ponder is what is beyond the start and end points of that focus...
    I am not the only one saying things with such conviction.

  10. #20
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I cant answer the op's question as well, but I like to set some basics straight:

    - first of all, we are all energy already; so saying that a human conciencse cant exist in form of energy would be factually be wrong.

    - Second, computers have data storage systems like FAT, NTFS. So when you would transfer a human conciencse into binary or quantumnary the question would be how the data would be allocated and interconnected. Scientists say the human brain has a storage capacity of about 1 TB that doesnt sound like much. but the question is which data system is it ? if you'ld transfer it 1o1 to a FAT system, the storage needed could be much more. And then the interconnection between the nodes in the brain isnt saved yet. As it seems the brain doesnt work like a computer which has a cpu and a storage system, it seems to work like the interconnection of many small units, which could be all small computers.

    - Third: people separate technical and biological too strongly, I think this is a flaw of our limited understanding of the world yet. Factually technical and biological are the same cause the molecules of a computer are the same like the molecules of a person, just in a different allocation.

    - And finally: I dont think a person or a soul augumented or transferred onto a computer would be the same. The sole fact of augumentation that comes with this transfer would change the person. And even if you'ld make a 1on1 copy with no augumentation, the sole fact of eternal life or "not growing older" would change the person. And even if you would make the person age, the sole fact of no illnesses no more would change the soul. And if you'ld account for everything you can possibly think of and make a biologically functioning one on one copy of said person, the fact that this person would think of itself as a clone would change the person. The factor of human nature needs to play the integral part in the equation

    In that light my answer would be, against all odds: No, a 1on1 copy onto a harddrive of a soul will never be possible.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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