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  1. #81
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5231311252 View Post
    Take away "in general" and you get "the bus is here by 9 a.m". I don't think that grammatically makes sense anyway, but without "in general" you are making a false statement, since what if the bus isn't here by 9 am?
    I see your point, but it doesn't seem relevant to the above confusion...

    "Worse" is a subjective term, so what's worse to you might be better to me. Same with "goodness". How can there be a "total goodness" anyway? This does not compute.
    Well yeah it's subjective...but if I recall correctly, you were the one who introduced the term -- I'm trying to work within the assumption set you started. "Worse" implies the existence of a spectrum of bad to good; if you are comparing two points on this spectrum, the one closer to the bad side is "worse" by definition. So if you imagine non-human animals represented by a point on the spectrum and humans represented by another point, the statement "humans are worse than animals" means that the human point is closer to the bad side than the non-human animal point.

    I interpret your use of "in general" as a representation of humans that is not just one point on the spectrum, but a point for each human (so around 7 billion points). Maybe some of these points are closer to the bad side than non-human animals and some are closer to the good side. But it still seems like your statement means that when you generalize the scatter plot with a best-fit point, that point is closer to the bad side than the non-human animal point.

    How else would you define a group being worse than another group? We're already pinned to a subjective framework when we start using the word "worse". It doesn't make the framework any more subjective to use the word "better" or even the term "total goodness". Thing x is worse than thing y when thing x's total goodness minus its total badness is less than thing y's total goodness minus its total badness.

  2. #82
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    geez i don't know... because we have a conciousness, and an ability to create abstractions, and an ability to derive meaningfull relationships in our enviroment.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  3. #83
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    Ok, after reading it again, it seems that I slightly misrepresented what Lenore Thomson said about this.

    Here is the quote.

    From Personality Type: An Owner's Manual:



    So, if I'm understanding her correctly, she's suggesting that Introverted Judgement (Fi or Ti) may be what separates us from our closest primate relatives.

    If that's true, the implications are interesting, if not hilarious (on so many levels!)



    Yeah, and Fe-doms as well, apparently.

    I don't really believe that, of course, but it sure is a funny thought!
    I don't think she would say that now. (She has changed some ideas since writing the book).

    Animals are guided by instinct rather than rational judgment, or even what we know as "perception".

    As I explain here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1715240 (based on things she explained to me)

    "It is the cognitive area animals do not have. The functions are basically interpretations of data. Animals experience things, but do not cognitively interpret them. They just react according to the limbic system of instinct and emotion.
    We experience things and also react from the limbic system, but in addition use the frontal cortex to interpret the limbic system's images freighted with emotion. The functions translate this limbic motivation into cognitive data, allowing us to redirect the instinctual 'energies' the limbic system mobilizes."
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  4. #84
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Male humans wear the tail at the front !

    ok no I have to come up with something for female humans hm hm
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #85
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Male humans wear the tail at the front !

    ok no I have to come up with something for female humans hm hm
    Females do as well. But, I have been told, their tails are somewhat hidden and rather small compared to the male ones.

  6. #86
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Females do as well. But, I have been told, their tails are somewhat hidden and rather small compared to the male ones.
    Hmm that sounds intresting. We should elaborate on that after our chess round tonight !
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #87
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5231311252 View Post
    I did miss the edit and to pinpoint it for you, the distinction is the absence of "in general". I don't care if you agree with my statements or not (though this is not to say that I'm not open to discussion), but if you're going to question them they should be the statements I actually made and not ones you altered or et cetera.
    You still haven't told me how the distinction is significant, which is what I've been asking this entire time (minus my initial post where I said being worse "in general" was vague and I wanted you to expand upon it.)
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  8. #88
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    You still haven't told me how the distinction is significant, which is what I've been asking this entire time (minus my initial post where I said being worse "in general" was vague and I wanted you to expand upon it.)
    Lmao, I might as well cosplay as a broken record. You yourself said you do not see the same nuance as I do; so clearly it is significant to me. It might not be to your liking, but that's not my problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I see your point, but it doesn't seem relevant to the above confusion…
    'Humans are worse than animals' would be a false statement coming from me, because it's possible for me to find that there are humans not worse than animals.

    Well yeah it's subjective...but if I recall correctly, you were the one who introduced the term -- I'm trying to work within the assumption set you started. "Worse" implies the existence of a spectrum of bad to good;
    I have my own ideas about this and my own reasons, but I want to know what you all think first. Are we better than animals, and if so, why?
    She asked a subjective question and I gave a subjective answer.

    the statement "humans are worse than animals" means that the human point is closer to the bad side than the non-human animal point.
    Who made that statement and what has it to do with me? I for one do not believe animals to be bad or good; these are traits to be applied to humans. For example, 'good dog' and 'bad dog' aren't indicators of the dog's actual 'goodness' or badness', but what the individual perceives.

    I interpret your use of "in general" as a representation of humans that is not just one point on the spectrum, but a point for each human (so around 7 billion points). Maybe some of these points are closer to the bad side than non-human animals and some are closer to the good side. But it still seems like your statement means that when you generalize the scatter plot with a best-fit point, that point is closer to the bad side than the non-human animal point.
    You did not ask me what you interpreted, you asked me a question of my meaning and I illustrated what I meant.

    Thing x is worse than thing y when thing x's total goodness minus its total badness is less than thing y's total goodness minus its total badness.
    Which "thing" are you referring to? As I've already stated, if we're referring to animals vs humans, I don't believe animals to be good or bad. I don't believe in such a thing as "total goodness" or "total badness"; it's entirely subjective. These are coming from you, not moi.
    “'Fuck', I think. What a beautiful word. If I could say only one thing for the rest of my life, that would be it.”

  9. #89
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5231311252 View Post
    Lmao, I might as well cosplay as a broken record. You yourself said you do not see the same nuance as I do; so clearly it is significant to me. It might not be to your liking, but that's not my problem.



    She asked a subjective question and I gave a subjective answer.


    Who made that statement and what has it to do with me? I for one do not believe animals to be bad or good; these are traits to be applied to humans. For example, 'good dog' and 'bad dog' aren't indicators of the dog's actual 'goodness' or badness', but what the individual perceives.


    You did not ask me what you interpreted, you asked me and I illustrated what I meant.


    Which "thing" are you referring to? As I've already stated, if we're referring to animals vs humans, I don't believe animals to be good or bad. I don't believe in such a thing as "total goodness" or "total badness"; it's entirely subjective. These are coming from you, not moi.
    Yes, my interpretations are coming from me... I'm trying to guess what you mean because you keep not explaining it.

    Seriously, what is the semantic relevance of "in general" in your statement? That has been the question for a while now.

    Also, if animals can't be good or bad, how can humans be (in general) worse? To call x worse than y means that x and y are things that exist on a spectrum from good to bad.


    EDIT re your edit:

    'Humans are worse than animals' would be a false statement coming from me, because it's possible for me to find that there are humans not worse than animals.
    "Humans are worse than animals" doesn't imply that all humans are worse than all animals. It implies that the general human is worse than the general animal. At least, that's how everyone else seems to interpret it.

  10. #90
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Oh my god, what's the point of having a conversation with you if you don't clarify what you say? Do you have communication problems IRL with people who can't magically read your mind?
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

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