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Is LOGIC the ultimate authority?

Spurgeon

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Do you agree or disagree with the following statement?:

"Logic cannot be the ultimate authority.
If it were, we couldn't prove the laws of logic to be objectively authoritative in the first place, because we would have to assume they were authoritative in order to do so, which is circular reasoning."


I'm not sure whether I agree with it or not (or whether it even makes sense).

If possible, please explain the reasons for your position.
 
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oneirocriticism

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Silly INTJ... feelings are obviously the ultimate authority then. I mean logic arouses from us perceiving something as being objective. So saying logic is the ultimate authority is like saying were all objects. Objections?
 

rav3n

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Cannot resist...

Logic isn't the ultimate authority. If you view politicians in general, regardless of whether they're elected, put in by right of might or inherited, there's nothing logical about them or how they govern...

For that matter, there's nothing logical about laws, although application of interpretation of laws can be logical.
 

Zarathustra

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No, logic is not the ultimate authority.

This is obvious.

I won't even go into the question of what the hell it means to be the "ultimate authority".

Samuel Beckett said it well enough:

The eighteenth century has been called the century of reason, la siècle de la raison. I've never understood that: they're all mad, ils sont tous fous, ils déraisonnent! They give reason a responsibility which it simply can't bear, it's too weak.

Einstein (an INTP), unlike most of his kin, managed to understand it:

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.

David Hume got it (mostly) right too:

Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them.

There are some qualifications I must add to Hume's claim, but, well, he's an ENTP, so you can't really expect him to get it just right.

Which begs the question: why the switch from ENTP to INTJ? An INTJ would never be foolish enough to ask this.
 

Spurgeon

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By the way, I didn't actually say I agree with the statement in the OP. I simply asked whether people agree with it or not.

Maybe I should rephrase the question.
 

Red Herring

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From what I can see the OP was about logic while all the replies so far were about reason.
 

rav3n

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From what I can see the OP was about logic while all the replies so far were about reason.
I'm just jacking around with a different perspective of the question itself. :tongue:

The question itself starts off with a subjective judgment that logic cannot be the ultimate authority. Sure, logic can be the ultimate authority if we subjectively believe it is the ultimate authority. We can also assign jack rabbits as the ultimate authorities if we subjectively wanted and believed.
 

Zarathustra

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I've done a lot of research lately and have come to the conclusion that I'm INTJ rather than ENTP.

:rly???:

Why is it foolish to ask this question?

Because the answer is obvious.

I didn't say I agreed with the statement in the OP, by the way.

Well, if by "the statement in the OP" you are referring to the quotation you offered, doesn't it say that logic is not the ultimate authority.

So by saying that you "didn't say [you] agreed with [it]", are you implying that you might think logic is the ultimate authority?

I don't think that's what you were trying to say, btw, but it is a reasonable reading of your post.

Second question: if you don't think logic is the ultimate authority, then why ask the question?
 

Spurgeon

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Well, Z did mention once that he liked you..

There must be a reason for that.

I could be wrong, but I don't think he said he liked me.

I believe he said he liked my style of argumentation.
 

Zarathustra

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I could be wrong, but I don't think he said he liked me.

I believe he said he liked my style of argumentation.

I don't remember saying either of these things.

I did say something like it, though.

I may have been joking.

:tongue:

(Although, I don't think you're a bad guy.)

(That discussion a few weeks ago got out of hand, though.)

(I also called both of you my children: does that mean you're my children?)
 

Spurgeon

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:rly???:



Because the answer is obvious.



Well, if by "the statement in the OP" you are referring to the quotation you offered, doesn't it say that logic is not the ultimate authority.

So by saying that you "didn't say [you] agreed with [it]", are you implying that you might think logic is the ultimate authority?

I don't think that's what you were trying to say, btw, but it is a reasonable reading of your post.

Second question: if you don't think logic is the ultimate authority, then why ask the question?

I think it's obvious that I'm simply asking whether people agree or disagree with it, and for their reasons.

Not sure why you're so concerned about whether I personally agree with it or not.

Frankly, I would rather not prejudice people's responses by stating my position at this time, if that's OK with you (sarcasm). ;)
 

Zarathustra

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I think it's obvious that I'm simply asking whether people agree or disagree with it, and for their reasons.

Not sure why you're so concerned about whether I personally agree with it or not.

Frankly, I would rather not prejudice people's responses by stating my position at this time, if that's OK with you (sarcasm). ;)

Usually people start threads with a purpose in mind.

If you're an INTJ, you most certainly do.

I remember you having strong religious sensibilities, and so I'm suspicious as to how this all fits together.

Add in the switch from INTJ to ENTP, and there's a whole lotta reason to have my suspicions.

:rly???:
 

Red Herring

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While his constant Ti bashing does get tiresome over time, I do share Zarathustra's suspicion that the ultimate purpose of this thread is proselytism.
 

Zarathustra

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While his constant Ti bashing does get tiresom over time, I do share Zarathustra's suspicion that the ultimate purpose of this thread is proselytism.

:hug:

(I actually need some Ti doms for a project I'm starting, so I probably ought cool it on the Ti-illumination)
 
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