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  1. #51
    Senior Member Spurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Feeble minds, feeble minds.

    In my facebook profile, I have a quote:

    "The truth is always the strongest argument." -Sophocles

    The funny thing about this quote is that it can be (aptly) interpreted in two ways.

    Interpretation 1: That which is correct will be the strongest argument.
    Interpretation 2: The strongest argument will be considered "the truth".

    I think the first is what usually strikes people immediately.

    But the second is completely understandable, based solely off the wording.

    Now, moving on to Kalach's post: "Is authority the ultimate logic?"

    Now, if you actually had an enlightened view of logic, you would understand that all kinds of things have a logic.

    Feelings, which might seem completely irrational to an observer, actually have their own internal logic.

    Behavior that would seem completely irrational from an outside observer generally (always?) has its own internal logic.

    Even things that might be completely unsound (let's say, astrology, or a religion) have their own robust and consistent internal logic.

    And the reason for this is that logic only really deals with one of the three kinds of truth (LINK): internal consistency/coherency.

    That is why logic can tell you all kinds of things that are valid; but it can't tell you whether or not something is sound.

    Validity (and most people don't know this) just means that a conclusion correctly follows from the premises.

    Soundness (which most people confuse with validity) means that the premises are actually correct, AND that the logic is valid.

    Ultimately, soundness itself is the true authority, the ultimate authority -- as I implied in my previous response.

    It doesn't matter what authority you or any other thing claims: the only true authority is what is correct.

    As such, Kalach's construction can be interpreted in two ways:

    Interpretation 1: Authority (i.e., actual authority, or soundness) is the ultimate logic (i.e., the logic that is true/sound).
    Interpretation 2: Authority (i.e., political authority) makes its desired logic the ultimate one (i.e., the only permissible one [at least in an authoritative regime]).

    I'm not sure if Kalach was intending the second one at all, but he usually likes to play with words/concepts.

    It's an understandable interpretation based solely on the wording, and rather relevant, in light of where he's living.

    It also points to the truth about logic that I mentioned before: that many (all?) things have their own internal logic.

    And, by pointing to this, it also point to the difference between validity and soundness, or logic and true authority.

    Regardless, I'm sorry you were incapable of following an authoritative opinion (in the first sense of the term).

    This is probably because you're an NTP.
    No need to get so personal.

    That's a very good explanation, but I already know all that.

    I was simply trying to save wasted time and effort.

    Also, regarding my type--I'm open to the opinions/observations of others.

    It was only a week ago that I switched to INTJ, so I'm still pretty open to NTP. It's the NTPs on this forum you're gonna have a hard time convincing, though. Good luck with that!

    I'm really quite interested in exploring my type further. I just don't think it's relevant to the topic of this thread.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    No need to get so personal.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it you who brought "you're full of it" into this conversation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    That's a very good explanation, but I already know all that.

    I was simply trying to save wasted time and effort.


    Then why are you still asking this question?

    These things don't add up...

    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    Also, regarding my type--I'm open to the opinions/observations of others. INTJ is certainly not set in stone.
    I just don't think it's relevant to the topic of this thread.
    Different types tend to have different views of/approaches to logic, so it's rather germane.

    NTPs tend to be more reverential toward logic due to TiSi imperatives.

    NTJs tend to find this reverence a bit ridiculous, as Ni(Te)Fi(Se) is more flexible and sees TiSi as rigid.

    We tend to focus on empiricism, getting the assumptions right, and inductive reasoning.

    You guys tend to focus on rationalism, basing things off (your subjective) first principles, and deductive reasoning.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Spurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it you who brought "you're full of it" into this conversation?
    OK. Fair enough.

    As for the rest of your post--and for just about every post I've seen of yours:



    Tiresome and pedantic. That's the only way to describe it.

    Your intuiton seems to be in hyperdrive (No, that's not a compliment--I mean you seem to overanalyze people's motives to a pathological degree)
    and you seem to have endless time to waste on pointless debate.

    It's just not worth the time and effort to respond to all of your little nitpicky arguments--especially since you're not even serious half the time.

    You're an intelligent clown, at best.

  4. #54
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    LOL
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    You're an intelligent clown, at best.
    Once again making it personal, after requesting that it not be...



    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    It's just not worth the time and effort to respond to all of your little nitpicky arguments...
    I haven't seen a single intelligent post from you in this thread.

    Is there a moment when you're actually going to address the topic?

    Or are you just waiting for the right moment to bring your proselytizing into this?

  6. #56
    Senior Member Spurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Once again making it personal, after requesting that it not be...





    I haven't seen a single intelligent post from you in this thread.

    Is there a moment when you're actually going to address the topic?

    Or are you just waiting for the right moment to bring your proselytizing into this?

  7. #57
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    LOL
    So, I'm reading all this horse shit, right?
    I get to your post with nothing more than three letters in it, and enjoy it more than any post in the entire circle-jerking thread.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Spurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    So, I'm reading all this horse shit, right?
    I get to your post with nothing more than three letters in it, and enjoy it more than any post in the entire circle-jerking thread.
    I agree.

    I'm ashamed that I've even wasted so much time with this guy, and with this thread.

    I wouldn't mind if the whole thing were just deleted right now.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    I wouldn't mind if the whole thing were just deleted right now.
    Yes, it was a dumb thread.

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