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Thread: Waterboarding

  1. #31
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post

    Beargy, I think for a discussion to be valid it is best that both parties show their points of view rather than one party doing so and the other party trying to prove the other wrong.
    When am I justified in depriving another human of their human rights?

    This is a question I ask myself, because I would choose to be just

  2. #32
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    When am I justified in depriving another human of their human rights?

    This is a question I ask myself, because I would choose to be just
    When that human chooses to deprive me or others of my or others rights.
    And when I choose to stop him or others who shares his views from depriving others' rights again.

    I believe that is what I believe.

    Also,

    I am interested to know what actions you would take.

  3. #33
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    The 2nd part of the question is a bit confusing. Could you clarify it. I don't wish to reply before the question is crystal clear.
    Step 1: Terrorist 1 thinks that America is infringing on his people and their basic rights and decides that American rights should be ignored just like they ignored his people's rights.

    Step 2: American 1 decides that Terrorist 1 should have no rights, because they have ignored basic human rights in their method of targeting Americans and acts accordingly.

    Rinse and repeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Possibly. But I think they deserve the benefit of doubt.
    Why? No one is above having their actions questioned.

    Well, in a war both sides are partial. No side is intrinsically evil or good. There is a balance.
    Then, why are these so different?

    "Terrorists: If there is potential to save innocent lives, it is justifiable. Terrorists aren't worthy of human rights, in first place.
    Army combatants: They were being loyal to their nation. Just happened to be on the wrong side. As a general rule, they shouldn't be tortured."
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  4. #34
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    When that human chooses to deprive me or others of my or others rights.
    And when I choose to stop him or others who shares his views from depriving others' rights again.

    I believe that is what I believe.

    Also,

    I am interested to know what actions you would take.
    The deprivers of human rights are to be deprived of their human rights

    Who then remains human? The one depriving another of their human rights is no longer human because they no longer have the rights of a human.

    Who is human?

  5. #35
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    When that human chooses to deprive me or others of my or others rights.
    And when I choose to stop him or others who shares his views from depriving others' rights again.

    I believe that is what I believe.

    Also,

    I am interested to know what actions you would take.
    Since a person is relieved of his rights the moment he does so to others, should torturing him just for the hell of it be allowed, since he no longer has human rights?

  6. #36
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    There was reasoning on your part? But, yes, the state should never practice or allow torture. If an interrogator uses torture to save a million lives, he should suffer the legal consequences.
    Sounds pretty inefficient, to say the least. But it isn't the point, right?
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  7. #37
    Riva
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    I love where this is going.
    I shall give you my answers tomorrow.
    I have to go take my beauty sleep as it is already late here, I have to wake up early tomorrow and believe it or not I have a time table (that I adhere to, though not often).

  8. #38
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Sounds pretty inefficient, to say the least.
    Your ears must fail you. And, please, say the utmost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    But it isn't the point, right?
    Right.

  9. #39
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Why? No one is above having their actions questioned.
    I didn't say that. Just meant innocent till proven guilty.
    Then, why are these so different?
    Because one thing is killing people in a war, another thing is doing it by terrorism. In a war, both sides are following what the state commands them to do. They trust the state to tell them what's the best for their nation. And they are meant to kill armed soldiers, that usually have some fighting chance against them.
    You will certainly find a lot of flaws in the arguments because, in the end, it is just my moral judgement, and moral judgements don't mix with logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Your ears must fail you. And, please, say the utmost.
    I understand your pov. Just think it is unreasonable. In the end of the day you can say your principles are solid, but the cost seems too high. Then you argue that if rules get bended, they aren't legitimate in first place. Checkmate.
    I was gonna ask whether if your life was at risk your opinion would be the same, but I decided the argument is weak.

    Leaving to study. laters.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  10. #40
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I understand your pov. Just think it is unreasonable. In the end of the day you can say your principles are solid, but the cost seems too high. Then you argue that if rules get bended, they aren't legitimate in first place. Checkmate.
    I was gonna ask whether if your life was at risk your opinion would be the same, but I decided the argument is weak.
    I would be thankful for someone who decided to break the law to save my life, but I would not want his actions to be legal.

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