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  1. #51
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Give it to me straight doc. What is wrong with me?
    +10% Crit Chance

  2. #52
    Member Spaceskye's Avatar
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    All this astrology makes me curious, care to read mine ?



    Another..


  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post



    Whoa...

    Pretty chart...

    Looks like diamonds...

    *shoves baby SFP back in box*
    It IS pretty

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    So, Saturned, here are the aspects from your natal chart:



    I've got to go to yoga, but I'll go through the rest when I get back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Ah, fuck it, here's the most important one:



    Seems rather accurate, if you ask me...

    I'll find some more detailed descriptions and post them when I get back.

    I'll post your next few most important aspects as well.
    Ok, but what do the other ones say? And why is this one the most important?

  4. #54
    Anew Leaf
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    P.S. I would think that the Saturn aspects would be the most important.


  5. #55
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Here is a look at mine for now.


    And here is all that good stuff.
    the formless thing which gives things form!
    Found Forum Haiku Project


    Positive Spin | your feedback welcomed | Darker Criticism

  6. #56
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    So Zara, you're saying you believe in astrology, and it's because of something that had a 1/144 chance of happening?

    Um, so I have a question -- why would star movements affect brain development? More importantly, even if brain development were magically affected, why would high-level personality traits conform so specifically to archetypes based on arbitrary time periods (months)?

    Why has no one mentioned the Forer Effect?

    I really just don't see any value to the system whatsoever. Personality types are not chosen based on personality data, so they are essentially randomly assigned. And now with random type assignments, we assign specific personality characteristics that are no more likely than chance to be descriptively valid. How could it be anything but hand-waving and unscientific vagueness?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    So Zara, you're saying you believe in astrology, and it's because of something that had a 1/144 chance of happening?
    No, if you read closely, you'd see that I repeatedly said that I don't necessarily believe in astrology (in the sense of it being representationally/correspondentially true). Also, because of the 1/144 chance event, I didn't start believing in astrology, or even finding value in it (the latter of which, I now do): it simply prodded me to look into it more.

    Once I looked into it, I read a very intelligent book that I'd already been given by my ex-girlfriend's best friend (an INFP).

    I found the author to be highly intelligent, and his argument to be internally consistent.

    I think I already mentioned him before: his name is Richard Tarnas.

    I'm pretty sure he's an INFJ, much like yourself.

    This is him:



    And these are his books:



    Praise for 'The Passion of the Western Mind':

    "The most lucid and concise presentation I have read of the grand lines of what every student should know about the history of Western thought." - Joseph Campbell

    "No other such overview provides, in equal compass, as clear and cogent a survey. Its scholarship is impeccable....For its length it is the best intellectual history of the West I have ever seen." - Huston Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Um, so I have a question -- why would star movements affect brain development?
    They don't.

    That's not the idea.

    You're working from a materialist paradigm.

    From that paradigm, astrology makes no sense.

    The point is that that paradigm is not the only one, and that, from others, it can make sense.

    Materialism is the dominant paradigm of our age, but it is not the only paradigm we've had in our history.

    Astrology only makes sense (in the sense that it is representationally/correspondentially true) under the assumption/paradigm/cosmological view that we do not live in a (solely) material universe.

    It is internally consistent/coherent, though, and, regardless of whether or not it's representationally/correspondentially true, it can prove pragmatically true/valuable as a method of self-reflection/self-inquiry/self-analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    More importantly, even if brain development were magically affected, why would high-level personality traits conform so specifically to archetypes based on arbitrary time periods (months)?
    Well, I think I've partially answered this question with the above: that working from a materialist paradigm, astrology will never make sense.

    As for the (newer) part about arbitrary time periods (i.e., "months"): it's not based off arbitrary time periods, it's based off how the planetary bodies (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn, uranus, neptune, pluto, et al), the signs (capricorn, aquarius, pisces, aries, taurus, gemini, cancer, leo, virgo, scorpio, sagitarrius), and the houses (1-12) are aligned at the moment and location of your birth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Why has no one mentioned the Forer Effect?
    I did actually.

    Did you read my first post?

    This is the second thing you've said now that makes it seem like you didn't.


    [Sorry, I thought I did write about the Forer effect in my OP. I certainly thought about it. Give me a sec to compose a response.]

    I mean, the Forer Effect is rather obvious, no? Obviously, it could all just be the Forer effect...

    But, if you go into it simply assuming that it's wrong, then you're probably gunna find that it's wrong, no?

    Similarly, if you go into it simply assuming that it's right, then you're probably gunna find that it's right, right?

    Well, in light of this, the only way to study the matter fairly would seem to be to go into it with an open mind, correct?

    That is the method I condone: don't go into studying it thinking of it being representationally/correspondentially true.

    But do go into it knowing the strongest argument in favor of its potential representational/correspondential truth.

    Then, go into it with an open mind, a truly open mind, and see whether you get anything out of it.

    If you don't, then who cares. It's free, easy, and doesn't take much time.

    On the other hand, maybe you do get something out of it.

    You can't know until you try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I really just don't see any value to the system whatsoever. Personality types are not chosen based on personality data, so they are essentially randomly assigned. And now with random type assignments, we assign specific personality characteristics that are no more likely than chance to be descriptively valid.
    As I'm sure you've gathered by now, and as is perfectly fair, considering all your writing came from the same response, the way you're looking at things is obviously through a materialist paradigm, which is why you would state that it is all "no more likely than chance". If you start from a different paradigm, it can all make perfect sense. My approach is not to have a paradigm (although, that's really a paradigm in and of itself). As such, I look foremost to see whether there's any value (in the sense of pragmatic truth) to astrology. I have found that, whether or not it is representationally/correspondentially true, there is pragmatic value to it, as has every person with whom I've gone over their natal chart.

    As our first hard skeptic to pose a thoughtful question: would you like to give it a try?

    <@Saturned and @senza_tema: I'm sorry, I know I've been holding off on you two, I'll try to get to both of you tonight.>

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    How could it be[...] anything but hand-waving and unscientific vagueness?
    It's not scientific, and that is largely the point.

    Not all kinds of knowledge are scientific.

    The real question is not "how could it be...?", but "why must it not be...?".
    Last edited by Zarathustra; 11-17-2011 at 07:18 PM.

  8. #58
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I repeatedly said that I don't necessarily believe in astrology.
    There is no need to believe in astrology for it to work, for astrology is a form of group hypnosis.

    And under group hypnosis our critical mind goes to sleep and we accept any suggestion made to us.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Ok, but what do the other ones say?
    I'm gunna compile your full list of aspects right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    And why is this one the most important?
    The program that I'm using has an algorithm whereby it gives a numerical value for each aspect.

    The meaning of this numerical value is essentially the "prominence" of that particular aspect in your chart.

    The algorithm takes into account a number of factors: the importance of an aspect between the two planets, what kind of an aspect it is, and the size of the orb. It also might take into account what signs each planet finds itself under (each planet "belongs" to a particular sign), and/or whether you're a male or a female, but I'm not quite sure about that yet (will try to find out).

    As such, when I look at any chart, for the most part, the things that stick out most to me are what end up being given higher values from this program. It's important to note, though, that you shouldn't read too much into these values -- they are relatively accurate, within the internal rules of astrology, but it's not like an aspect with a 120 value is necessarily gunna be that much more important than an aspect with a 110 value. And, on a different but related note, often times it's the lower-value aspects (circa the 30s) that offer some accurate, insightful piece of information about somebody (kinda the "cherry on top", if you know what I mean).

    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    P.S. I would think that the Saturn aspects would be the most important.
    We will see!

  10. #60
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    No, if you read closely, you'd see that I repeatedly said that I don't necessarily believe in astrology (in the sense of it being representationally/correspondentially true). Also, because of the 1/144 chance event, I didn't start believing in astrology, or even finding value in it (the latter of which, I now do): it simply prodded me to look into it more.
    Yeah, I only skimmed the thread; my bad.

    Once I looked into it, I read a very intelligent book that I'd already been given by my ex-girlfriend's best friend (an INFP).

    I found the author to be highly intelligent, and his argument to be internally consistent.

    I think I already mentioned him before: his name is Richard Tarnas.

    I'm pretty sure he's an INFJ, much like yourself.
    I still think he's wrong

    They don't.

    That's not the idea.

    You're working from a materialist paradigm.

    From that paradigm, astrology makes no sense.

    The point is that that paradigm is not the only one, and that, from others, it can make sense.

    Materialism is the dominant paradigm of our age, but it is not the only paradigm we've had in our history.

    Astrology only makes sense (in the sense that it is representationally/correspondentially true) under the assumption/paradigm/cosmological view that we do not live in a (solely) material universe.
    I can see that I guess. I must admit that I have a really hard time viewing anything outside of a materialistic framework...

    The framework in which astrology would make sense would have to account for correlations between star movement and personality -- as in, it would have to postulate a causal link -- maybe a common cause? I'd like to hear an account like this that wouldn't sound really hand-wavey or convoluted.

    Well, I think I've partially answered this question with the above: that working from a materialist paradigm, astrology will never make sense.

    As for the (newer) part about arbitrary time periods (i.e., "months"): it's not based off arbitrary time periods, it's based off how the planetary bodies (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn, uranus, neptune, pluto, et al), the signs (capricorn, aquarius, pisces, aries, taurus, gemini, cancer, leo, virgo, scorpio, sagitarrius), and the houses (1-12) are aligned at the moment and location of your birth.
    I don't really know much about astrology, but why would the difference between January 19th and 20th have more effects than the difference between December 22nd and January 19th?

    Since all these planetary bodies move in different orbits, why is the pattern expressed in terms of earth months or years?

    As I'm sure you've gathered by now, and as is perfectly fair, considering all your writing came from the same response, the way you're looking at things is obviously through a materialist paradigm, which is why you would state that it is all "no more likely than chance". If you start from a different paradigm, it can all make perfect sense. My approach is not to have a paradigm (although, that's really a paradigm in and of itself). As such, I look foremost to see whether there's any value (in the sense of pragmatic truth) to astrology. I have found that, whether or not it is representationally/correspondentially true, there is pragmatic value to it, as has every person with whom I've gone over their natal chart.

    As our first hard skeptic to pose a thoughtful question: would you like to give it a try?
    Sure, why not?

    It's not scientific, and that is largely the point.

    Not all kinds of knowledge are scientific.

    The real question is not "how could it be...?", but "why must it not be...?".
    I guess I just meant it doesn't seem consistent with current scientific theory.

    But I do think knowledge (whatever that really means) should be scientific, as in, each theoretical account of a phenomenon should be compared to other possible accounts based on consistency with data and description length. So in order to raise my belief in astrology, I'd have to see a lot of data that fits better with astrology than determinism since the description length of astrology is really high (as in, you have to use more words to explain astrology than to explain materialistic determinism).

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