Zarathustra's Astrology Thread, or, Where An INTJ (Foolishly) Defends Astrology

[Rasofy]

That would be one interpretation.

There are others.

You are talking like an INTP!

 

[Rasofy]

I will be reading your posts here, who knows, maybe I can learn something new.

 

[Mole]

Victor and Sim

Wait, we need Sim and Victor. Lol.

I was talking to Sim the other day and he said I shouldn't have put Jaguar on Ignore. Talk to him as an equal, said Sim, the same way you talk to me.

Oo! Oo! I dunno, I said.

Just talk to him nicely about astrology, said Sim.

Astrology! Astrology!, I said. Yes, astrology, said Sim, just do your best.

Well, astrology is the ur-religion. Astrology is the mother of all religions. All religions are based on astrology. And by showing respect for astrology, we are showing respect for our mother.

In fact, I went on to say, to understand religion, it is necessary to understand astrology first.

What a wonderful slogan, said Sim, "Astrology First".

And you see, said Sim, it's not that hard, is it Victor?

 

[Jaguar]

Just talk to him nicely about astrology, said Sim.
Astrology! Astrology!, I said. Yes, astrology, said Sim, just do your best.

Sim doesn't even talk like that, Victor. Man, you're a character. Lol.

 

[Mole]

Sim and Jaguar

Sim doesn't even talk like that, Victor. Man, you're a character. Lol.

I am miffed you would describe me as a character, Jaguar. And anyway, Sim has taken me as a role model and he is even starting to talk like me.

I took his advice and spoke to you as an equal, but I can't help feeling I have made a mistake. But I don't blame you, I blame Sim.

 

[Jaguar]

I am miffed you would describe me as a character, Jaguar. And anyway, Sim has taken me as a role model and he is even starting to talk like me.

I took his advice and spoke to you as an equal, but I can't help feeling I have made a mistake. But I don't blame you, I blame Sim.

Victor, I could say you smell like coffee and you'd find a way to be "miffed."

 

[011235813]

My family loves astrology and had my birth chart done when I was a baby. After they got a hold of the results, they promptly put the horoscope away and refused to tell me a word about it, which makes me believe that I am, in fact, the Second Coming.

What do you think? Should I be thinking about rapturing away God's elect any time soon? *

---
* I really hope I don't go to hell for this.

 

[Zarathustra]

What do you think?

You do have a very positive birth chart.

The second most positive I've seen.

I noticed it just by looking at the picture (birth/natal wheel, or something like that).

You've got this large system of trines and conjunctions (the blue lines), which are the two most positive aspects.

You have Mars conjunct Jupiter, which is in trine with Venus conjunct Pluto.

Oh, and look, I didn't even look at your specific aspect values, but Mars conjunct Jupiter is your most positive one.

In fact, it might be the most positive aspect I've seen of any chart I've looked at (which doesn't surprise me).

These are two major planets, and if you understand their archetypes, and what it means to have them in conjunction...

Two planets in conjunction (the most positive aspect in astrology) means those two planets work, well, in conjunction, with one another...

A conjunction exists when, at the moment of your birth, two planets were right next to each other in the sky.

You can imagine why this would seem rather significant to our ancient ancestors.

Mars is an archetype of energy and vitality; Jupiter is an archetype of expansivesness and success (and a little immaturity -- like mythical Zeus).

Here's what happens when you put the two together in a conjunction:

Mars conjunct Jupiter

Harmonious Mars/Jupiter aspects are a marker of worldly comfort and financial success. The conjunction indicates a person who is energetic, resourceful, frank, outspoken, pioneering, and adventurous. There is often executive ability and an entrepreneurial attitude toward business ventures. You stand up for your beliefs and would be a formidable opponent in any kind of battle or competition. The energy of Mars combines with the expansiveness of Jupiter to increase your enthusiasm, liveliness, and optimism. You probably enjoy travel, flying, the outdoors, competitive sports, vigorous exercise, and other Jupiter-ruled pursuits. Often there is an interest in philosophical, legal, religious, scientific, or political matters.

You enjoy learning about something and then spreading the word to others. This can lead to success in broadcasting, teaching, the travel industry, promoting, propaganda, publicity, advertising, or Internet related businesses. You like to display your talent before others. There may also be talent for Mars-ruled occupations that require courage, energy and risk-taking (e.g., police, military, etc.), or that involve the use of fire, explosives, weapons, or instruments that penetrate the body (e.g., surgery, acupuncture, etc.). If this conjunction forms stressful aspects, there may be problems with impulsive or addictive behavior.

Alternate, short interpretations: You have a positive, "can-do" attitude and tackle life's challenges with relish. You are self-confident and have a strong will to succeed, to see how much you can do and how far you can go. No matter what you accomplish, you do not rest on your laurels. You want to keep on going, to do even bigger things. You are forward-looking, enterprising, and enthusiastic about new projects. You are not happy in situations that do not offer you challenges and the potential for growth and expansion in the future - no matter how secure or satisfactory they may be in other respects. You enjoy competition, but you compete mostly with yourself, to see how much of your vision and potential you can really achieve. You make a good leader, inspiring courage and confidence in others. You usually enjoy good health and high vitality.

If you were to give me your actual birth info or send me your profile, I could paste the actual description from your profile; this is a more generic one from the same website.

Sometimes the descriptions in the actual profiles have a quick summary at the end, that sums everything up nicely.

(I don't want to be invasive, though, if you don't want me to have that info.)

 

[Zarathustra]

Oh, you know what, I just noticed a little more from your chart.

So that Mars conjunct Jupiter is not only in trine (the second most positive aspect) with Venus conjunct Pluto.

It's also square (the second most negative aspect) with a large system: Saturn conjunct Midheaven conjunct Mercury.

That yields a number of negative (i.e., challenging) aspects in your profile, but they are still rather small.

Your more negative aspects come from Sun opposition Moon, and Uranus opposition Moon.

I'll get back to your (and Saturned's) chart in a little while.

 

[mmhmm]

omg i ran so many astrology reports on jock and i.
compatibility, soul mates, and all sorts of other creepy
stuff. so much fun to read! i want to go buy more now.

mmhmm Aspect jock Orb/Value
Sun Conjunction Venus 4.11 186
Sun Trine Jupiter 0.17 132
Moon Conjunction Mercury 2.46 231
Moon Conjunction Pluto 1.09 118
Mercury Conjunction Mercury 1.53 87
Mercury Conjunction Pluto 0.16 120
Venus Conjunction Sun 4.26 178
Mars Conjunction Uranus 0.12 121
Mars Square Ascendant 1.53 -100
Jupiter Sextile Moon 0.53 94
Jupiter Trine Mars 2.57 55
Jupiter Square Neptune 1.07 -87
Saturn Sextile Saturn 0.24 62
Saturn Square Neptune 2.20 -61
Neptune Conjunction Uranus 2.02 75
1459 -248 1211

 

[Critical Hit]

Give it to me straight doc. What is wrong with me?

 

[Spaceskye]

All this astrology makes me curious, care to read mine ?

Another..

 

[Anew Leaf]

Whoa...

Pretty chart...

Looks like diamonds...

*shoves baby SFP back in box*

It IS pretty

So, Saturned, here are the aspects from your natal chart:



I've got to go to yoga, but I'll go through the rest when I get back.

Ah, fuck it, here's the most important one:



Seems rather accurate, if you ask me...

I'll find some more detailed descriptions and post them when I get back.

I'll post your next few most important aspects as well.

Ok, but what do the other ones say? And why is this one the most important?

 

[Anew Leaf]

P.S. I would think that the Saturn aspects would be the most important.

 

[Vasilisa]

Here is a look at mine for now.

And here is all that good stuff.

 

[redacted]

So Zara, you're saying you believe in astrology, and it's because of something that had a 1/144 chance of happening?

Um, so I have a question -- why would star movements affect brain development? More importantly, even if brain development were magically affected, why would high-level personality traits conform so specifically to archetypes based on arbitrary time periods (months)?

Why has no one mentioned the Forer Effect?

I really just don't see any value to the system whatsoever. Personality types are not chosen based on personality data, so they are essentially randomly assigned. And now with random type assignments, we assign specific personality characteristics that are no more likely than chance to be descriptively valid. How could it be anything but hand-waving and unscientific vagueness?

 

[Zarathustra]

So Zara, you're saying you believe in astrology, and it's because of something that had a 1/144 chance of happening?

No, if you read closely, you'd see that I repeatedly said that I don't necessarily believe in astrology (in the sense of it being representationally/correspondentially true). Also, because of the 1/144 chance event, I didn't start believing in astrology, or even finding value in it (the latter of which, I now do): it simply prodded me to look into it more.

Once I looked into it, I read a very intelligent book that I'd already been given by my ex-girlfriend's best friend (an INFP).

I found the author to be highly intelligent, and his argument to be internally consistent.

I think I already mentioned him before: his name is Richard Tarnas.

I'm pretty sure he's an INFJ, much like yourself.

This is him:

And these are his books:



Praise for 'The Passion of the Western Mind':

"The most lucid and concise presentation I have read of the grand lines of what every student should know about the history of Western thought." - Joseph Campbell

"No other such overview provides, in equal compass, as clear and cogent a survey. Its scholarship is impeccable....For its length it is the best intellectual history of the West I have ever seen." - Huston Smith

Um, so I have a question -- why would star movements affect brain development?

They don't.

That's not the idea.

You're working from a materialist paradigm.

From that paradigm, astrology makes no sense.

The point is that that paradigm is not the only one, and that, from others, it can make sense.

Materialism is the dominant paradigm of our age, but it is not the only paradigm we've had in our history.

Astrology only makes sense (in the sense that it is representationally/correspondentially true) under the assumption/paradigm/cosmological view that we do not live in a (solely) material universe.

It is internally consistent/coherent, though, and, regardless of whether or not it's representationally/correspondentially true, it can prove pragmatically true/valuable as a method of self-reflection/self-inquiry/self-analysis.

More importantly, even if brain development were magically affected, why would high-level personality traits conform so specifically to archetypes based on arbitrary time periods (months)?

Well, I think I've partially answered this question with the above: that working from a materialist paradigm, astrology will never make sense.

As for the (newer) part about arbitrary time periods (i.e., "months"): it's not based off arbitrary time periods, it's based off how the planetary bodies (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn, uranus, neptune, pluto, et al), the signs (capricorn, aquarius, pisces, aries, taurus, gemini, cancer, leo, virgo, scorpio, sagitarrius), and the houses (1-12) are aligned at the moment and location of your birth.

Why has no one mentioned the Forer Effect?

I did actually.

Did you read my first post?

This is the second thing you've said now that makes it seem like you didn't.

[Sorry, I thought I did write about the Forer effect in my OP. I certainly thought about it. Give me a sec to compose a response.]

I mean, the Forer Effect is rather obvious, no? Obviously, it could all just be the Forer effect...

But, if you go into it simply assuming that it's wrong, then you're probably gunna find that it's wrong, no?

Similarly, if you go into it simply assuming that it's right, then you're probably gunna find that it's right, right?

Well, in light of this, the only way to study the matter fairly would seem to be to go into it with an open mind, correct?

That is the method I condone: don't go into studying it thinking of it being representationally/correspondentially true.

But do go into it knowing the strongest argument in favor of its potential representational/correspondential truth.

Then, go into it with an open mind, a truly open mind, and see whether you get anything out of it.

If you don't, then who cares. It's free, easy, and doesn't take much time.

On the other hand, maybe you do get something out of it.

You can't know until you try.

I really just don't see any value to the system whatsoever. Personality types are not chosen based on personality data, so they are essentially randomly assigned. And now with random type assignments, we assign specific personality characteristics that are no more likely than chance to be descriptively valid.

As I'm sure you've gathered by now, and as is perfectly fair, considering all your writing came from the same response, the way you're looking at things is obviously through a materialist paradigm, which is why you would state that it is all "no more likely than chance". If you start from a different paradigm, it can all make perfect sense. My approach is not to have a paradigm (although, that's really a paradigm in and of itself). As such, I look foremost to see whether there's any value (in the sense of pragmatic truth) to astrology. I have found that, whether or not it is representationally/correspondentially true, there is pragmatic value to it, as has every person with whom I've gone over their natal chart.

As our first hard skeptic to pose a thoughtful question: would you like to give it a try?

<[MENTION=13402]Saturned[/MENTION] and [MENTION=13147]senza_tema[/MENTION]: I'm sorry, I know I've been holding off on you two, I'll try to get to both of you tonight.>

How could it be[...] anything but hand-waving and unscientific vagueness?

It's not scientific, and that is largely the point.

Not all kinds of knowledge are scientific.

The real question is not "how could it be...?", but "why must it not be...?".

 

[Mole]

I repeatedly said that I don't necessarily believe in astrology.

There is no need to believe in astrology for it to work, for astrology is a form of group hypnosis.

And under group hypnosis our critical mind goes to sleep and we accept any suggestion made to us.

 

[Zarathustra]

Ok, but what do the other ones say?

I'm gunna compile your full list of aspects right now.

And why is this one the most important?

The program that I'm using has an algorithm whereby it gives a numerical value for each aspect.

The meaning of this numerical value is essentially the "prominence" of that particular aspect in your chart.

The algorithm takes into account a number of factors: the importance of an aspect between the two planets, what kind of an aspect it is, and the size of the orb. It also might take into account what signs each planet finds itself under (each planet "belongs" to a particular sign), and/or whether you're a male or a female, but I'm not quite sure about that yet (will try to find out).

As such, when I look at any chart, for the most part, the things that stick out most to me are what end up being given higher values from this program. It's important to note, though, that you shouldn't read too much into these values -- they are relatively accurate, within the internal rules of astrology, but it's not like an aspect with a 120 value is necessarily gunna be that much more important than an aspect with a 110 value. And, on a different but related note, often times it's the lower-value aspects (circa the 30s) that offer some accurate, insightful piece of information about somebody (kinda the "cherry on top", if you know what I mean).

P.S. I would think that the Saturn aspects would be the most important.

We will see!

 

[redacted]

No, if you read closely, you'd see that I repeatedly said that I don't necessarily believe in astrology (in the sense of it being representationally/correspondentially true). Also, because of the 1/144 chance event, I didn't start believing in astrology, or even finding value in it (the latter of which, I now do): it simply prodded me to look into it more.

Yeah, I only skimmed the thread; my bad.

Once I looked into it, I read a very intelligent book that I'd already been given by my ex-girlfriend's best friend (an INFP).

I found the author to be highly intelligent, and his argument to be internally consistent.

I think I already mentioned him before: his name is Richard Tarnas.

I'm pretty sure he's an INFJ, much like yourself.

I still think he's wrong

They don't.

That's not the idea.

You're working from a materialist paradigm.

From that paradigm, astrology makes no sense.

The point is that that paradigm is not the only one, and that, from others, it can make sense.

Materialism is the dominant paradigm of our age, but it is not the only paradigm we've had in our history.

Astrology only makes sense (in the sense that it is representationally/correspondentially true) under the assumption/paradigm/cosmological view that we do not live in a (solely) material universe.

I can see that I guess. I must admit that I have a really hard time viewing anything outside of a materialistic framework...

The framework in which astrology would make sense would have to account for correlations between star movement and personality -- as in, it would have to postulate a causal link -- maybe a common cause? I'd like to hear an account like this that wouldn't sound really hand-wavey or convoluted.

Well, I think I've partially answered this question with the above: that working from a materialist paradigm, astrology will never make sense.

As for the (newer) part about arbitrary time periods (i.e., "months"): it's not based off arbitrary time periods, it's based off how the planetary bodies (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn, uranus, neptune, pluto, et al), the signs (capricorn, aquarius, pisces, aries, taurus, gemini, cancer, leo, virgo, scorpio, sagitarrius), and the houses (1-12) are aligned at the moment and location of your birth.

I don't really know much about astrology, but why would the difference between January 19th and 20th have more effects than the difference between December 22nd and January 19th?

Since all these planetary bodies move in different orbits, why is the pattern expressed in terms of earth months or years?

As I'm sure you've gathered by now, and as is perfectly fair, considering all your writing came from the same response, the way you're looking at things is obviously through a materialist paradigm, which is why you would state that it is all "no more likely than chance". If you start from a different paradigm, it can all make perfect sense. My approach is not to have a paradigm (although, that's really a paradigm in and of itself). As such, I look foremost to see whether there's any value (in the sense of pragmatic truth) to astrology. I have found that, whether or not it is representationally/correspondentially true, there is pragmatic value to it, as has every person with whom I've gone over their natal chart.

As our first hard skeptic to pose a thoughtful question: would you like to give it a try?

Sure, why not?

It's not scientific, and that is largely the point.

Not all kinds of knowledge are scientific.

The real question is not "how could it be...?", but "why must it not be...?".

I guess I just meant it doesn't seem consistent with current scientific theory.

But I do think knowledge (whatever that really means) should be scientific, as in, each theoretical account of a phenomenon should be compared to other possible accounts based on consistency with data and description length. So in order to raise my belief in astrology, I'd have to see a lot of data that fits better with astrology than determinism since the description length of astrology is really high (as in, you have to use more words to explain astrology than to explain materialistic determinism).