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  1. #211
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    astromatrix.org
    Just used this.

    You are constantly in motion, but sometimes it is motion without meaning. Lacking self-discipline, you take daring and unnecessary risks when challenged. Your supporters regard you as courageous, but your enemies consider you 'pushy' and arrogant. However, you are not moved by either opinion, because you want most of all for people to recognize your superiority and give you the breathing room you need. You constantly have to see that people are in awe of your aggressive superiority, because inside you are not really that sure of yourself. The image you present hides a persistent inferiority complex. You probably win your arguments by making the most noise and wearing out your opponents with unceasing harassment. [...] A very physical person, you tend to brush aside any talk of compromise or concession as tactics fit only for the weak and spineless. It is almost impossible to have a simple, friendly talk with you; when you think you are losing control and your position is weakening, you become angry and may resort to violence.
    Totally me...

    The best thing about my birth chart, though, is how blatantly the different descriptions contradict each other. Clearly hoping to catch me one way or the other, it is somewhat impressive how seldom they do hit the nail.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Totally me...
    What aspect or placement was that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The best thing about my birth chart, though, is how blatantly the different descriptions contradict each other.
    Do you have not a single contradictory element in your being?

    Are you not ever one way in certain situations, but another seemingly contradictory way in others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Clearly hoping to catch me one way or the other, it is somewhat impressive how seldom they do hit the nail.
    There is not really any hoping.

    It's a computer.

    It spits all the information out according to its formula.

    The formula is indeed based on the positions of the astral bodies, signs, and houses, are the moment and location of your birth.

    And the interpretations do actually fit according to the archetypes and underpinning logic of astrology.

    Different interpretations (by different authors) may word things a bit differently, or accentuate certain elements of the archetypes more or less than others, but the point is to not merely go word by word, in an extremely literal fashion, through each aspect/position's interpretation, but to come to understand the archetypal principles towards which each interpretation is pointing.

    The output of a computer, while phenomenal from an efficiency standpoint, is inherently mechanical, and its limitations must be understood. And one must take this into account when reading a computer-generated profile, if one ever hopes to give their chart a fair, open-minded reading.

  3. #213
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Tbh, I just used that site myself and...the results were..really not relatable. Ive had my star chart read before and...well, let's just say the two didn't match.
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  4. #214
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    What aspect or placement was that?
    Ascendant Conjunct Mars? The second paragraph of the results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Do you have not a single contradictory element in your being?

    Are you not ever one way in certain situations, but another seemingly contradictory way in others?
    1: The Sun sextile the Ascendant shows that it is easy for you to express yourself.
    2: Neptune sextile the Ascendant shows that you have difficulty in expressing yourself and often give people the wrong impression.

    To make that work, I think you have to be a believer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    There is not really any hoping.

    It's a computer.
    I guess the computer composed the descriptions itself, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    It spits all the information out according to its formula.

    The formula is indeed based on the positions of the astral bodies, signs, and houses, are the moment and location of your birth.

    And the interpretations do actually fit according to the archetypes and underpinning logic of astrology.
    Well, these are the very things that are in question when one critically looks at astrology. Except the moment and location of my birth. I am fairly certain of those.

  5. #215
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Do you have not a single contradictory element in your being?

    Are you not ever one way in certain situations, but another seemingly contradictory way in others?
    If a profile is supposed to account for this by making contradictory statements about the same person, then it has the Forer effect written all over it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    There is not really any hoping.

    It's a computer.

    It spits all the information out according to its formula.

    The formula is indeed based on the positions of the astral bodies, signs, and houses, are the moment and location of your birth.

    And the interpretations do actually fit according to the archetypes and underpinning logic of astrology.
    It is a computer, but it is scripted by people and applies concepts devised by people. Nicodemus may still be correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Different interpretations (by different authors) may word things a bit differently, or accentuate certain elements of the archetypes more or less than others, but the point is to not merely go word by word, in an extremely literal fashion, through each aspect/position's interpretation, but to come to understand the archetypal principles towards which each interpretation is pointing.
    That sounds to me like "if you squint hard enough, it will look like you".

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    The output of a computer, while phenomenal from an efficiency standpoint, is inherently mechanical, and its limitations must be understood. And one must take this into account when reading a computer-generated profile, if one ever hopes to give their chart a fair, open-minded reading.
    Actually, I would think that the way astrology is at least theoretically supposed to work, it would should be so deterministic that a computer would be quite suited for making sense of it and giving an accurate reading.
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  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If a profile is supposed to account for this by making contradictory statements about the same person, then it has the Forer effect written all over it.
    That's fine.

    I already addressed this just a few posts above to Prplchknz:

    It is certainly prone to the forer effect.

    But that accusation could (and would) be levied against it, even if it's true.

    THAT is the (difficult) task that astrology challenges us to take up: are your critical thinking, interpretive, and reading skills well cultivated enough such that you can give your natal chart a truly open-minded reading, while not simply falling victim to the forer effect (because there's no way, while doing the reading, if one is genuinely open-minded while doing it, that one will know whether astrology is indeed [correspondentially] true or not).
    It's difficult enough to respond to five to seven people asking questions at the same time.

    Please try to mind answers that have already been offered that deal with the issue you're raising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It is a computer, but it is scripted by people and applies concepts devised by people.
    And the concepts and scripts are executed in a purely formulaic fashion.

    Where were the planets, signs, and houses, at the time and location of your birth, and what are the interpretations of those locations and placements relative to one another.

    It is very up front and honest about its methods, and there is nothing inherently deceitful about any of them.

    You can be suspicious about them, but you can be suspicious about anything, if you want to, including about a good and honest person.

    If you actually do the work, and look into astrology, while you will come to the conclusion that the execution of the methods could indeed lead to the Forer Effect while one reads their natal chart, you will also come to the conclusion that there is not necessarily anything inherently deceitful about the methods used.

    The methods are the methods, and, frankly, they have a reasonable and understandable logic underpinning them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Nicodemus may still be correct.
    Yes, and my point still stands.

    There is nothing inherently deceitful about any of the methods.

    If you actually studied them, and knew how they worked, you would see this.

    Can the product of the methods potentially lead to Forer Effect?

    Absolutely.

    But, once again, I already addressed that to Prplchknz (and to you above).

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That sounds to me like "if you squint hard enough, it will look like you".
    That's fine, and it's an understandable interpretation.

    But what I said is also what's absolutely necessary (and reasonably necessary, if one actually studies this stuff, and comes to understand how the interpretations are created/discovered/intuited), if you want to interpret a chart as it's meant to be interpreted.

    Just like with the Forer Effect question, just because you can have that position, and do so reasonably, does not necessarily make it correct.

    That, as I said, is the challenge of astrology.

    Suspending one's (dis)belief, and giving a truly open-minded reading.

    Because one cannot know, while one is genuinely doing such a thing, whether astrology is indeed (correspondentially) true or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Actually, I would think that the way astrology is at least theoretically supposed to work, it would should be so deterministic that a computer would be quite suited for making sense of it and giving an accurate reading.
    Well, that's cuz you don't really know how it's supposed to work.

    There are difficulties that you can understand only if you actually have taken a deep and genuinely open dive into it at all.

    If one has not given astrology a chance, to truly openly try to understand it on its own terms, one really isn't in a position, having not seen it from the inside, and thus come to understand how it actually might work, to make any such determination.

    I could provide many lengthy, detailed, and accurate reasons why computers present issues when it comes to interpretations.

    And the reason I can is because I have actually done the work, and done so in a genuinely open, curious, and considerate way.

    (And there's still plenty of work to do; I could not imagine I'm even 40% of the way to truly being completely adept at it.)

  7. #217
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    Nico, your reply will be coming next.

  8. #218
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    What are the differences between Western astrology and Eastern astrology? Is there one?

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    What are the differences between Western astrology and Eastern astrology? Is there one?
    First off, I should say, that I am not expert enough in astrological history and the various astrological traditions to make an authoritative statement on this matter, so understand that when you read what I'm about to say, that what I'm about to say is simply what I have gathered from what research I have done, and that what research I have done on this matter is, imo, far too little to be authoritative.

    Second, simply calling it Eastern astrology vs Western astrology is a very flawed way of looking at it. China has its own astrological tradition, which, from my understanding, is very different from the others. Vedic astrology, from my understanding, tho, is actually very similar to "Western astrology" (which really should be looked at, I believe, as Hellenistic astrology, coming from the Greeks), as I believe the lines of transmission of the ideas were significantly increased by the conquests of Alexander the Great.

    All that being said, some months ago I learned (to my surprise) that Vedic astrology actually supposedly comes from "Western astrology", or Hellenistic astrology. I had actually previously assumed it was the other way around, as, having many good Indian friends growing up, and having gone to college as well with some of them, it was certainly put into my consciousness that many things we take for granted as "Greek" actually had a largely Indian origin (myths, etc). Some recent research has made me now triple back, and, frankly, I am now uncertain whether this Greek -> Indian transmission is actually what occurred, but, nevertheless, from what I have seen, there seem to be many more similarities between Greek astrology and Indian astrology than between Chinese astrology and either one of them (I have a very poor understanding of Chinese astrology, tho, so, once again, take that with the appropriate grain of salt, as perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about).

    Umm.. does that answer your question?

    I could probably say more, like about how the concepts and archetypes are essentially the same, I believe, but, while I believe this is largely true (there are things that seem to be accentuated in Vedic astrology, that might not really be as emphasized, or even really prevalent at all, in Western astrology, but these appear to be more like minor cultural variants, whereas the overarching frameworks are more-or-less the same), once again, I'm not expert enough to be completely authoritative on the matter.

  10. #220
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    Oh, and the primary origin of all of astrology, from what I have gathered, is Mesopotamia/Babylon.

    I actually briefly glanced over this yesterday.

    You could probably learn a lot just from it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mundane_astrology

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