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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    It might be meaningful, but it wouldn't be statistically valid.
    Yeah, I just don't really care.

    In fact, and I will expand upon this later, a large part of all this is a wholesale rejection of the scientific method's approach to the truth.

    I don't give a fuck if "science" wouldn't see the results of my experiment as a "valid" conclusion; if I were to do it, and we got all of the profiles right, that's fucking saying something, regardless of how "science" feels about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Also, you should have each person guess the profiles of everyone else without referring to each other. Then you have a sample size of 8-10 instead of 1.
    I understand that you could do it that way, but that's not how I'm interested in doing it.

    A large part of the reason is that I don't think many people understand how to interpret these things (I would bet that, of all my friends, I'm probably the only one who does). Furthermore, different people have different views of others, often largely based on their highly subjective interpretations; I think by working in a group, these factors could be mitigated to some degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    It's definitely true that people don't have entirely accurate understandings of themselves. We're already in a bit of a hand-wavey framework when we're talking about personality theories...

    Luckily, it doesn't matter here as long as we assume that people have a better than chance understanding of themselves. The study would be correlational anyway. (It would make the correlation less pronounced, but it couldn't reduce it to chance.)
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Is there really no way to format the chart so it's written out in paragraph form?
    You could, but then you'd be sacrificing the integrity of the study.

    A rising sign has a very specific meaning. Therefore, one needs to understand what a rising sign means, in order to understand how their rising sign will play itself out in their life. Same goes for the sun sign. Same goes for the moon sign. Same goes for all of the planets and the signs they fall under. Same goes for all of the signs. Same goes for the ways in which the various planets aspect one another. You need to have an understanding of things, and be told what you're reading, in order to interpret it correctly.

    To be completely honest, just writing down the stuff I did for Saturned, for example, doesn't really provide Saturned with that much understanding. It's just words on a page to her. Not until you understand why the person wrote those words, which can only come from understanding how astrology works, do those words really start to make much sense, to become meaningful.

    This is why it's difficult to conduct any of these kinds of experiments: the people who are interpreting them must know how to interpret them in the first place, and this only really comes from having taken up astrology and given it the benefit of the doubt, to some degree, enough times and over an extended-enough period, so as to actually develop an accurate understanding of how astrology works from the inside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Anyway, I didn't think too seriously about the scientific test thing and I came up with one...
    See how many others you can come up with.

    We can discuss the pro's and con's of them here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I'm sure many people out there have come up with way better tests than that. So why haven't we seen this kind of data yet? I'm gonna bet it's because people can't do better than chance.
    I would suggest some alternate possibilities:

    • People who understand astrology from the inside might not be all that interested in these kinds of tests. They might not be good at devising them, they might not have the funding/resources to put them together, and, quite frankly, they might just not even care. Just being real, these people probably often times aren't the scientific type. Of people with an interest in astrology, I'm assuming I'm a bit more on the scientific side than most. And, even then, I have philosophical and practical reasons as to why I don't think trying to scientifically test astrology will be that effective or meaningful.

    • People who don't understand astrology from the inside will usually: 1) have a poor understanding of how astrology actually works, and thus have a poor understanding of the ways in which the setups for the experiments are dffecting the results in potentially damaging ways; and 2) will often tend to be astrology skeptics who really don't care about getting to the truth of the matter, and thus putting together the best experiments possible, but who really just want to "disprove astrology once and for all". I'm sure these studies exist, and you can find them, but I would bet my money that I would readily find problems with most of them.

  2. #112
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yeah, I just don't really care.

    In fact, and I will expand upon this later, a large part of all this is a wholesale rejection of the scientific method's approach to the truth.

    I don't give a fuck if "science" wouldn't see the results of my experiment as a "valid" conclusion; if I were to do it, and we got all of the profiles right, that's fucking saying something, regardless of how "science" feels about it.
    This mentality is a pretty huge mistake IMO. A positive result can either be chance or your hypothesis being correct. You can't distinguish between these possibilities without using statistics -- the idea of confidence intervals is incredibly important here.

    Rejecting statistics detracts from your credibility. It's math! Why would you argue with math?

    I understand that you could do it that way, but that's not how I'm interested in doing it.

    A large part of the reason is that I don't think many people understand how to interpret these things (I would bet that, of all my friends, I'm probably the only one who does). Furthermore, different people have different views of others, often largely based on their highly subjective interpretations; I think by working in a group, these factors could be mitigated to some degree.
    They would also be mitigated by analyzing 8-10 samples instead of 1. But I hear ya... The only problem here is the one I mentioned above...

    How would you know if you got your results by chance or because your hypothesis is correct? (You need a bigger sample size.)

    You could, but then you'd be sacrificing the integrity of the study.

    A rising sign has a very specific meaning. Therefore, one needs to understand what a rising sign means, in order to understand how their rising sign will play itself out in their life. Same goes for the sun sign. Same goes for the moon sign. Same goes for all of the planets and the signs they fall under. Same goes for all of the signs. Same goes for the ways in which the various planets aspect one another. You need to have an understanding of things, and be told what you're reading, in order to interpret it correctly.
    Why can't you just include what a rising sun means in sentence form? If it's understandable, it can be written...

    To be completely honest, just writing down the stuff I did for Saturned, for example, doesn't really provide Saturned with that much understanding. It's just words on a page to her. Not until you understand why the person wrote those words, which can only come from understanding how astrology works, do those words really start to make much sense, to become meaningful.

    This is why it's difficult to conduct any of these kinds of experiments: the people who are interpreting them must know how to interpret them in the first place, and this only really comes from having taken up astrology and given it the benefit of the doubt, to some degree, enough times and over an extended-enough period, so as to actually develop an accurate understanding of how astrology works from the inside.
    I don't really understand. Astrologers give readings, yes? Why not have them write the readings instead of saying them out loud. They'll do a bunch of 'em, then have subjects read a few each (with their own included). If they are right more than the percentage that their profile takes up in the set of profiles they see, points go to astrology. If astrology can gain points with a positive expected value over a statistically valid sample, that would mean something.

    I would suggest some alternate possibilities:
    [*]People who understand astrology from the inside might not be all that interested in these kinds of tests. They might not be good at devising them, they might not have the funding/resources to put them together, and, quite frankly, they might just not even care. Just being real, these people probably often times aren't the scientific type. Of people with an interest in astrology, I'm assuming I'm a bit more on the scientific side than most. And, even then, I have philosophical and practical reasons as to why I don't think trying to scientifically test astrology will be that effective or meaningful.
    I find it impossible to believe that no one with a rudimentary understanding of scientific testing also understands astrology. There are millions of astrology enthusiasts out there. Some of them must've cared enough and understood enough to try out some tests.

    [*]People who don't understand astrology from the inside will usually: 1) have a poor understanding of how astrology actually works, and thus have a poor understanding of the ways in which the setups for the experiments are dffecting the results in potentially damaging ways; and 2) will often tend to be astrology skeptics who really don't care about getting to the truth of the matter, and thus putting together the best experiments possible, but who really just want to "disprove astrology once and for all". I'm sure these studies exist, and you can find them, but I would bet my money that I would readily find problems with most of them.
    Don't you think you're basically doing the same thing? You're defending astrology and trying to figure out ways to invalidate testing techniques that could provide counter-evidence. It seems like you're complaining about the bias of these skeptics by just being biased in the same way.

  3. #113
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Anything that can be learned can be explained in a way that others can understand. If you can understand something, you can explain it. This is how we learn anything at all.

    Furthermore, would should never be required to believe something before they can understand it. You should understand something before you should believe it.

    I think Zarathustra's responses here are lacking on these requirements and subsequently I find them suspiciously evasive.
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  4. #114
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    This thread is making me happy. Zarathustra preaching Tarnas. It's better than Christmas. Rock on!

  5. #115
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    ...and the INTPs regain the upper hand.

  6. #116
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I think it's more NFs.....(infp, infjs....etc)
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  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I think it's more NFs.....(infp, infjs....etc)
    lol no

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ...and the INTPs regain the upper hand.
    lol no

    (just wait)

  9. #119
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I think it's more NFs.....(infp, infjs....etc)
    yeah we've been rocking it

  10. #120
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    anyone good at synastry?

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