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  1. #41
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Do you believe that there is a real, absolute and obejctive evil in existence or is it just all a projection of peoples worst or wickednest traits by themselves onto an "other"?

    Jung said both of these things, without considering there to be a seeming contradiction. Some how I think he is right, that it could be both but I'm not sure how I resolve the seeming contradiction.
    I absolutely do not believe in an absolute objective evil. It seems to me that when something is referred to as evil, what they really mean is "not in the interest of humanity and/or myself."
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

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    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  2. #42
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    The Bible does explain the hows and whys. One's inability to understand it (or unwillingness to accept it) says nothing about the veracity of it's claims.

    Also, it seems you've really missed the point in regard to Jacob . He is not being commended for wrestling with God. It's to his shame. In fact, he gets his hip put out of joint as a reminder of who is really in charge. And actually, that was an act of mercy, considering that God could have utterly destroyed him.
    Jacob himself understood that, thus his response: "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered."

    I could go on and on about the fallacies in your arguments, but suffice it to say, you are interpreting scripture from a human-centered point of view rather than a God-centered one. Therein lies the whole problem.

    In fact, the concept of absolute Good and Evil is not hard to understand, it's just hard to accept, because it implies moral responsibility to an absolute authority.

    Thankfully, all one must do to gain a real understanding of these things is to stop trying to place themselves above God and surrender to him.

    No, if this God wanted to simply remind people he was in charge, then he wouldn't have wasted his time like that. The story has him fighting him an entire night. That he injured his hip is a reminder, yes. I never said that Jacob won or that it even could be won. I'm saying that he simply struggled.

    The whole ordeal was ultimately not a "punishment". Jacob insisted that he not leave and to give him his blessing - and immediately following this, God gave him a unique role and name. The one who struggles with God.

    I can't help but think the god in this story liked the relationship. Maybe he found it refreshing. In any case, it's one of the few things that seperates the bible's deity from others. Rewarding that kind of struggle. Every other god wants unquestioning obedience. If you want to reduce it to that, be my guest..but then, you wouldn't be any different serving any under god under the sun. Another tool. Good luck on that.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Yeah, I can relate to this. Yeah, once you brand something as objectively evil.. it doesn't matter how or why it exists, all that is left to do is to destroy it, because it implies that there is nothing left to understand. I'm not going to say that there isn't something out there that isn't actually the very embodiment of evil.. there are a lot of things out there.
    Yeah, that's my view pretty much. Not that occasions wont arise when humans have become evil and are irredeemable. The only solution then is to firebomb Dresden.

  4. #44
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    I don't believe that any sort of physical manifestation or quanitfiable "force" of evil exists in the world outside of humans' perception of something as "evil." I do believe there are certain actions that are almost always evil, such as murder and rape, but I wouldn't necessarily say they are objectively evil because there is always a shade of gray. Like euthanasia is technically murder, but I don't think it's evil. (I can't think of any way that rape wouldn't be evil, but there could be.)
    Last edited by Aquarelle; 11-02-2011 at 09:35 AM.
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  5. #45
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    Evil is in the eyes of the beholder.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    That word just isn't up my alley. It's moralizing BS.
    If I use it, it's in jest.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I absolutely do not believe in an absolute objective evil. It seems to me that when something is referred to as evil, what they really mean is "not in the interest of humanity and/or myself."
    Well that definitely would be a subjective assessment and projection, what you're describing there.

    Some of the interesting things I've watched and read lately about, of all things (well it was halloween) the devil, have suggested that originally angels where terrifying in their pursuit of what was unequivocally good, although not necessarily in mankinds interest, the devil, or rather Satan, appears to have originally been some kind of God's own regulator as opposed to a mischievious sprite or meddler.

  8. #48
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The Line in the Sand

    The closest we have come to absolute evil in the West was the Shoah.

    And in response to the Shoah we signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    However fifty-seven Islamic States, the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) have openly and publicly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    So the West met near absolute evil in the Shoah, and we turned our faces resolutely against evil.

    Unfortunately the OIC have embraced evil, particularly anti-semitism, the oppression of women, inequality before the law, and child abuse.

    So the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is the line we have drawn in the sand.

  9. #49
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    Objective? No.

    People's values are based on very subjective personal preference -- the concepts of "good" and "bad" are ones contructed by humans.
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  10. #50
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    The whole ordeal was ultimately not a "punishment". Jacob insisted that he not leave and to give him his blessing - and immediately following this, God gave him a unique role and name. The one who struggles with God.
    Yeah, I think there's a lot that people want to label "black or white," "good or evil" that is simply part of human experience and the maturation process. People are fallible and works in progress, and we're constantly being challenged, realigning our thoughts and understanding of the world, and growing. I guess if one wants to see the hip thing as a "punishment" for hubris, then they can read it that way, but I believe that also flattens JHWH's character here as well. Marring someone to that degree simply to punish them for defiance isn't much different than slashing up a child's face for misbehaving; that's a shame-creating stigma that is carried for life, not an act of mercy or redemption. It's humiliating and painful and destructive... and would ironically probably more along the lines of "evil" than anything else.
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