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  1. #31
    Senior Member Spurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Great, another pat answer. You're almost like a pez dispenser or something. Remind me when we can actually discuss something.
    Well, there's certainly a lot more to it. But, yes, I will always be explaining (to the best of my ability) what the Bible says. So if that's too "pat" for you, then I guess you'll just go elsewhere.

  2. #32
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    Well, there's certainly a lot more to it. But, yes, I will always be explaining (to the best of my ability) what the Bible says. So if that's too "pat" for you, then I guess you'll just go elsewhere.

    I've been studying the bible for.. hmm.. believe it or not, half of my life (in my 30s now). I'm not going to be satisfied by your explanations, if they're just doctrinal statements that work in a bubble. I'm already familiar with those kind of answers, and secondly, I find them unsatisfying. I want to know what it means or how it applies on a wider scale. Which you're unwilling to provide or even challenge yourself with. I will always encounter your bubble (don't mind me though, I'm not here to burst it either).

  3. #33
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I've been studying the bible for.. hmm.. believe it or not, half of my life (in my 30s now). I'm not going to be satisfied by your explanations, if they're just doctrinal statements that work in a bubble. I'm already familiar with those kind of answers, and secondly, I find them unsatisfying. I want to know what it means or how it applies on a wider scale. Which you're unwilling to provide or even challenge yourself with. I will always encounter your bubble (don't mind me though, I'm not here to burst it either).
    Yeah, there's really nothing to talk about at that level. Quoting scriptures and such only work if you accept the Bible as a source of authority and in exactly the same way as the other person. If you want to get there, you'd have to prove to the other person that Bible is a source of authority. I'm sure that will only take a few posts, right?

  4. #34
    Senior Member Spurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Yeah, there's really nothing to talk about at that level. Quoting scriptures and such only work if you accept the Bible as a source of authority. If you want to get there, you'd have to prove to the other person that Bible is a source of authority. I'm sure that will only take a few posts, right?
    That's true.

    However, the purpose of quoting scripture is not to convince people, but simply to proclaim the truth.
    You will never convince someone of the truth of scripture (especially where it convicts them of sin). Only the Holy Spirit can do that.

    All a Christian can do (and must do) is proclaim it.

    Now to tie this back to the thread and avoid a derail....

    I agree with the following statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well, I do think it is dangerous if evil is objectified/projected and "othered", so it only becomes a characteristic of "them", it leads to a variety of consequences ranging from silliness and myopic perspectives to outright wicked ideologies, in-groups and persecuted out-groups.
    The Bible claims that ALL human beings have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).
    Evil is not merely the problem of "the other," but of oneself as well.

    NOTE: It's actually the false assumption that human beings are inherently good that engenders the "othering" of "Evil". THINK ABOUT IT!

    There's no need to water it down. Each and every one of us are bent towards evil. (Romans 3:11, I John 1:8). Thus, the need for personal repentance.

  5. #35
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Proclaiming doctrine never gets to the heart of the matter (philosophically speaking) on some issues. It doesn't answer whys or hows.

    And forbidding questioning any of it isn't what the Bible itself teaches either. You know, the very namesake of the first "people" of God is Israel.. from the man Jacob. The story of his name is an allegory of sorts. Jacob is said to have gotten in a fight, a wrestling match with a strange man in the night.. he struggled with the man the entire night, until the man finally was about the leave at dawn. Jacob grabbed on to him and wanted his blessing. He knew it was God or some angel of God. And the man decided to change Jacob's name right there and called him "Israel" - which means, "struggles with God". One who is honest with God. And by honest, it doesn't mean submissive and placating. It means honest. You might be a Christian, but this is the very root of your own religion. A story of people who struggle and seek out God. Proclamations do little to satisfy this type. And it doesn't really change in the New Testament either. Most of Jesus' followers question him, and even abandon him at points. I don't think it was ever to supposed to be easy as you make it.

  6. #36
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    An absolute and objective evil does not exist, and niether does an absolute and objective good. What is considered good by some is evil to another and vice versa; the two concepts are relative to the values of indiviaul people and/or groups. And like all concepts, it does not exist a priori; what things can be considered to be good or evil is entirely relevant on thinking agents who can comprhend this idea, but what they fail to realize is that they are looking at things in an illusionary manner when they speak of good and evil in the most absolute sense.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    It's an important point for these discussions, otherwise they are just people describing their own definitions of evil, and explaining why other people's definitions don't fit their own (sometimes saying that makes them wrong). No one's any more correct than each other, as it's a purely semantic difference.
    Of course people will describe their own definitions, explain why other people's definitions don't fit or are wrong. Did you expect to solve a problem or find the truth here?

    The core idea is probably that evil is the (extreme) opposite of good. That, it seems to me, is as far as the consensus goes. Whatever follows are foolish attempts to get to the 'nature' of it.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Of course people will describe their own definitions, explain why other people's definitions don't fit or are wrong. Did you expect to solve a problem or find the truth here?

    The core idea is probably that evil is the (extreme) opposite of good. That, it seems to me, is as far as the consensus goes. Whatever follows are foolish attempts to get to the 'nature' of it.
    Well I didn't expect anything, but yes that is probably the only universal definition, its relation to good. I would like to understand why such a term came about, and why people continue to treat it the way they do. Those questions could be answered here, who knows?

  9. #39
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Those questions could be answered here, who knows?
    I think 'evil' is the superlative to 'not to my liking'. In order to express just how much one does not like something, a word that goes beyond the subjective (positive: not to my liking), beyond simple facts (comparative: wrong) is required. If there is evil, one cannot disagree (subjective), or content oneself with mere acknowledgement (simple facts); if there is evil, one has to do something about it.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Spurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Proclaiming doctrine never gets to the heart of the matter (philosophically speaking) on some issues. It doesn't answer whys or hows.

    And forbidding questioning any of it isn't what the Bible itself teaches either. You know, the very namesake of the first "people" of God is Israel.. from the man Jacob. The story of his name is an allegory of sorts. Jacob is said to have gotten in a fight, a wrestling match with a strange man in the night.. he struggled with the man the entire night, until the man finally was about the leave at dawn. Jacob grabbed on to him and wanted his blessing. He knew it was God or some angel of God. And the man decided to change Jacob's name right there and called him "Israel" - which means, "struggles with God". One who is honest with God. And by honest, it doesn't mean submissive and placating. It means honest. You might be a Christian, but this is the very root of your own religion. A story of people who struggle and seek out God. Proclamations do little to satisfy this type. And it doesn't really change in the New Testament either. Most of Jesus' followers question him, and even abandon him at points. I don't think it was ever to supposed to be easy as you make it.
    The Bible does explain the hows and whys. One's inability to understand it (or unwillingness to accept it) says nothing about the veracity of it's claims.

    Also, it seems you've really missed the point in regard to Jacob . He is not being commended for wrestling with God. It's to his shame. In fact, he gets his hip put out of joint as a reminder of who is really in charge. And actually, that was an act of mercy, considering that God could have utterly destroyed him.
    Jacob himself understood that, thus his response: "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered."

    I could go on and on about the fallacies in your arguments, but suffice it to say, you are interpreting scripture from a human-centered point of view rather than a God-centered one. Therein lies the whole problem.

    In fact, the concept of absolute Good and Evil is not hard to understand, it's just hard to accept, because it implies moral responsibility to an absolute authority.

    Thankfully, all one must do to gain a real understanding of these things is to stop trying to place themselves above God and surrender to him.

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