Real absolute and objective evil?

[Metamorphosis]

Do you believe that there is a real, absolute and obejctive evil in existence or is it just all a projection of peoples worst or wickednest traits by themselves onto an "other"?

Jung said both of these things, without considering there to be a seeming contradiction. Some how I think he is right, that it could be both but I'm not sure how I resolve the seeming contradiction.

I absolutely do not believe in an absolute objective evil. It seems to me that when something is referred to as evil, what they really mean is "not in the interest of humanity and/or myself."

 

[KDude]

The Bible does explain the hows and whys. One's inability to understand it (or unwillingness to accept it) says nothing about the veracity of it's claims.

Also, it seems you've really missed the point in regard to Jacob . He is not being commended for wrestling with God. It's to his shame. In fact, he gets his hip put out of joint as a reminder of who is really in charge. And actually, that was an act of mercy, considering that God could have utterly destroyed him.
Jacob himself understood that, thus his response: "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered."

I could go on and on about the fallacies in your arguments, but suffice it to say, you are interpreting scripture from a human-centered point of view rather than a God-centered one. Therein lies the whole problem.

In fact, the concept of absolute Good and Evil is not hard to understand, it's just hard to accept, because it implies moral responsibility to an absolute authority.

Thankfully, all one must do to gain a real understanding of these things is to stop trying to place themselves above God and surrender to him.

No, if this God wanted to simply remind people he was in charge, then he wouldn't have wasted his time like that. The story has him fighting him an entire night. That he injured his hip is a reminder, yes. I never said that Jacob won or that it even could be won. I'm saying that he simply struggled.

The whole ordeal was ultimately not a "punishment". Jacob insisted that he not leave and to give him his blessing - and immediately following this, God gave him a unique role and name. The one who struggles with God.

I can't help but think the god in this story liked the relationship. Maybe he found it refreshing. In any case, it's one of the few things that seperates the bible's deity from others. Rewarding that kind of struggle. Every other god wants unquestioning obedience. If you want to reduce it to that, be my guest..but then, you wouldn't be any different serving any under god under the sun. Another tool. Good luck on that.

 

[Lark]

Yeah, I can relate to this. Yeah, once you brand something as objectively evil.. it doesn't matter how or why it exists, all that is left to do is to destroy it, because it implies that there is nothing left to understand. I'm not going to say that there isn't something out there that isn't actually the very embodiment of evil.. there are a lot of things out there.

Yeah, that's my view pretty much. Not that occasions wont arise when humans have become evil and are irredeemable. The only solution then is to firebomb Dresden.

 

[Aquarelle]

I don't believe that any sort of physical manifestation or quanitfiable "force" of evil exists in the world outside of humans' perception of something as "evil." I do believe there are certain actions that are almost always evil, such as murder and rape, but I wouldn't necessarily say they are objectively evil because there is always a shade of gray. Like euthanasia is technically murder, but I don't think it's evil. (I can't think of any way that rape wouldn't be evil, but there could be.)

 

[Not_Me]

Evil is in the eyes of the beholder.

 

[Jaguar]

That word just isn't up my alley. It's moralizing BS.
If I use it, it's in jest.

 

[Lark]

I absolutely do not believe in an absolute objective evil. It seems to me that when something is referred to as evil, what they really mean is "not in the interest of humanity and/or myself."

Well that definitely would be a subjective assessment and projection, what you're describing there.

Some of the interesting things I've watched and read lately about, of all things (well it was halloween) the devil, have suggested that originally angels where terrifying in their pursuit of what was unequivocally good, although not necessarily in mankinds interest, the devil, or rather Satan, appears to have originally been some kind of God's own regulator as opposed to a mischievious sprite or meddler.

 

[Mole]

The Line in the Sand

The closest we have come to absolute evil in the West was the Shoah.

And in response to the Shoah we signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

However fifty-seven Islamic States, the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) have openly and publicly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

So the West met near absolute evil in the Shoah, and we turned our faces resolutely against evil.

Unfortunately the OIC have embraced evil, particularly anti-semitism, the oppression of women, inequality before the law, and child abuse.

So the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is the line we have drawn in the sand.

 

[niffer]

Objective? No.

People's values are based on very subjective personal preference -- the concepts of "good" and "bad" are ones contructed by humans.

 

[Totenkindly]

The whole ordeal was ultimately not a "punishment". Jacob insisted that he not leave and to give him his blessing - and immediately following this, God gave him a unique role and name. The one who struggles with God.

Yeah, I think there's a lot that people want to label "black or white," "good or evil" that is simply part of human experience and the maturation process. People are fallible and works in progress, and we're constantly being challenged, realigning our thoughts and understanding of the world, and growing. I guess if one wants to see the hip thing as a "punishment" for hubris, then they can read it that way, but I believe that also flattens JHWH's character here as well. Marring someone to that degree simply to punish them for defiance isn't much different than slashing up a child's face for misbehaving; that's a shame-creating stigma that is carried for life, not an act of mercy or redemption. It's humiliating and painful and destructive... and would ironically probably more along the lines of "evil" than anything else.

 

[ICUP]

I think there are evil acts, not evil people. There are damaged people who perform many evil acts. I think all people have the potential to act mostly good.
I don't think there is an absolute objective evil, nor is there anyone who goes beyond redeemable. I simply don't think we have figured out how to fix them yet.

 

[Spurgeon]

Evil is real, people. And it's not just something "out there." It's within all of us.

The words of Jesus Christ:

"For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” (Mark 7:21-23)

"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." (John 3:19-21)

Therefore, in the words of Paul the Apostle (Acts17:30-31):
"The times of ignorance God overlooked, but know he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

 

[Nicodemus]

Evil is not real, people. It's not something 'out there'. It's just a word.

The words of Nicodemus:

"Evil is not real, people. It's not something 'out there'. It's just a word." (Nico 1:1)

 

[Beargryllz]

I find evil to be largely subjective

Kind of like music and how it "rocks"

Like some stuff rocks, but other stuff sucks, but some people disagree on what "rocks" and what sucks

Evil is mostly the same, and we tend to agree a lot of the time on what is evil and what rocks

Take the Beatles for example. Everyone loves the Beatles. They rock. Now look at murder or rape. Everyone thinks these things are evil. But there is so much middle ground that we are going to argue about. Like, if I could help somebody, is it evil if I don't? Some would say yes, many would say no.

 

[Mole]

The Usual Suspects

Evil is not real, people. It's not something 'out there'. It's just a word.

The words of Nicodemus:

"Evil is not real, people. It's not something 'out there'. It's just a word." (Nico 1:1)

Ah, Nico 1:1 - one of the usual suspects.

But Keyser Sose reliably informs us that the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

 

[Mole]

Our Measure of Evil

Most of the evil in the world is carried out by large and powerful groups against vulnerable groups.

Genocide is our measure of evil in the modern world.

 

[Nicodemus]

Ah, Nico 1:1 - one of the usual suspects.

But Keyser Sose reliably informs us that the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

Excuse me, dear Victor. I should have included this:

"Believe you me, for I speak the truth." (Nico 1:2)

 

[Mole]

Who is Keyser Soze?

Excuse me, dear Victor. I should have included this:

"Believe you me, for I speak the truth." (Nico 1:2)

Ah yes, Nicodemus, but who is Keyser Sose? He is as charming as Nicodemus, as intelligent as Nicodemus, coming from a world far away, almost beyond our comprehension, but we trust him, he is plausible, and even more, believeable.

But when Keyser Sose turns his back, he disappears, only to reappear in our dreams and nightmares.

So let us put the matter to you, dear Nicodemus. Who is Keyser Soze? Why do we never see Nicodemus and Keyser Soze at the same time.

Tell us, dear Nicodemus, who is Keyser Soze?

 

[Not_Me]

Evil is real, people. And it's not just something "out there." It's within all of us.

The words of Jesus Christ:

Jesus is evil?

 

[Nicodemus]

Tell us, dear Nicodemus, who is Keyser Soze?

Keyser Söze is the one who wrote what you read when you read what I wrote. To you, we are one; yet I have never seen him. When he speaks, I talk; yet when I speak, he remains silent.