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  1. #31
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    This is an interesting idea, but I still think that truth can be objective. There is still a certain thing happening in a nuclear fission, and if one believes that elements remain unchanged after nuclear fission, one's idea of nuclear fission is incorrect. You could argue that this person would just have a different definition for "nuclear fission", but even in this case the term they are using still applies to a different objective truth, or maybe even an idea that doesn't exist. The term "nuclear fission" is a subjective term, but the term represents an objective reality.

    Take this scenario: a person arrives at the conclusion that there is a god and an afterlife. Another person is an atheist and arrives at the conclusion that there is no god. What happens to each person upon dying? Is there a god for one person and not for the other? You could argue that their definitions for "god" are different, but that won't change the reality of that god existing or not.
    I agree.. but the objectivity takes second seat to whether and how it matters. And the things that really matter have a lot less objective existence than nuclear fission, they are things like self worth and feeling safe and such. Some of those things can only be worked with in certain ways not having to do with objectivity at all and are more real to us the nuclear fission. The more important truths are subjective.

  2. #32
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I agree.. but the objectivity takes second seat to whether and how it matters. And the things that really matter have a lot less objective existence than nuclear fission, they are things like self worth and feeling safe and such. Some of those things can only be worked with in certain ways not having to do with objectivity at all and are more real to us the nuclear fission. The more important truths are subjective.
    It depends on which truth is true. If Hinduism is right then sure, your own personal thing matters more than some objective truth or whatever. On the other hand, if Islaam is true, then you should be really worried about objective truth.

  3. #33
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    It depends on which truth is true. If Hinduism is right then sure, your own personal thing matters more than some objective truth or whatever. On the other hand, if Islaam is true, then you should be really worried about objective truth.
    What do you use as a measure to decide what's worth worrying about and what matters and what doesn't? What measuring stick do you use?

    EDIT: Ah, wait, I see.. you're talking about life after death stuff. What about what matters living in the now?

  4. #34
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    What I'm completely failing to understand, is any correlation between religion and truth, particularly objective truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    What I'm completely failing to understand, is any correlation between religion and truth, particularly objective truth.
    I slippery sloped it. I'm trying to figure it myself...

    Ah okay. Well, I was arguing that objective truth is of less importance than what it means. Then it slid into religion.

  6. #36
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I slippery sloped it. I'm trying to figure it myself...

    Ah okay. Well, I was arguing that objective truth is of less importance than what it means. Then it slid into religion.
    Ooohhh...it was you! You will be punished accordingly!

  7. #37
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    What do you use as a measure to decide what's worth worrying about and what matters and what doesn't? What measuring stick do you use?

    EDIT: Ah, wait, I see.. you're talking about life after death stuff. What about what matters living in the now?
    For one, how you live now could possibly determine the afterlife. Also, if something like Christianity is true, then the best and most fulfilling way to live your life is according to Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    What I'm completely failing to understand, is any correlation between religion and truth, particularly objective truth.
    I don't see how one could not correlate the two. Islaam says that there was a god that created the universe and everything he says is objectively true. This might or might not be correct.

    EDIT

    I'm not trying to argue religion, by the way; religion is just an easy example.

    EDIT 2

    I prefer the term "worldview".

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    For one, how you live now could possibly determine the afterlife. Also, if something like Christianity is true, then the best and most fulfilling way to live your life is according to Christianity.


    I don't see how one could not correlate the two. Islaam says that there was a god that created the universe and everything he says is objectively true. This might or might not be correct.
    Oh, I dunno. I took a completely bottom up approach than a top down one. To sum up: If God wants you to know something, he would making it completely apparent. Otherwise, there's a credibility issue. That's where I started, the other way will drive you insane.

  9. #39
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    The Scientific Method and Revelation

    There is the truth and the Truth with a capital T.

    We can arrive at a very close approximate of the truth using the scientific method of empirical experiment and reason.

    But the Truth with a capital T is arrived at by revelation.

  10. #40
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Oh, I dunno. I took a completely bottom up approach than a top down one. To sum up: If God wants you to know something, he would making it completely apparent. Otherwise, there's a credibility issue. That's where I started, the other way will drive you insane.
    I can see arguing that if a certain god existed he would make himself known, but maybe there's a God out there who desires that his people search for objective truth before he shows himself. Also, it could be something completely different that is important to believe or follow. One isn't able to figure this out by looking inwardly, and I personally would not want to risk the negative consequences of some of the worldviews out there just because I give my beliefs a personal foundation. Though, to be fair, if the truth is undesirable (take nihilism, for example) then one risks an unhappy life in finding it, but I perceive the other risk to be a greater one.

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