User Tag List

First 12345 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 52

  1. #21
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    451 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFj Ni
    Posts
    5,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    Where to start? Now that's a difficult question.

    I'd like to say that one should start without any presuppositions, realizing that one could be wrong about everything, but one has to start somewhere. Without presuppositions there is no starting point. Even in purely concrete subjects like math there are postulates. To get anywhere, we do have to assume a few things: first off, that human logic at its purest form has some form of inherent correctness, and secondly that our experiences are based on some form or reality around us, even if they aren't always accurate. Once one gets somewhere with these "postulates", then the extent to which these work out confirms their truthfulness, thought I guess one should be ready to accept these being wrong.

    I'd also like to point out that if a certain worldview comes without consequences for disbelief, I probably wouldn't bother looking into it much. I guess this is a utilitarian view and sort of an extended version of Pascal's argument, but whatever.
    So you must be Christian?

    Isn't Utilitarianism, and Pascal's wager, the converse: Choose the thing that give you the best outcome, versus what punishes you; and believe even when you don't, just in case. ?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  2. #22
    Senior Member uncommonentity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    441

    Default

    First, I'd get everyone drunk.
    Veni, Vidi, Cessi.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Posts
    6,020

    Default

    By aligning your life with what you think is true and being willing to fail. And by consistently challenging your basic assumptions about who you are, what you want and what life is all about. Be agnostic about everything. Doubt others. Doubt yourself. Doubt their words and your thoughts and live with the struggle until truth explodes on/in you. Works most of the time for me.

    But more importantly realize that MAPS ARE NOT THE TERRITORY. Your map of reality is not the territory. So stick with the territory.

  4. #24
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I disagree here. I think any postulates you should start with should be personal. These postulates are somewhat NT flavoured. The first truth is internal, recognizing what you need out of life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    Which truth are we talking about? There are many truths.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    What is "really" true? Quite frankly, I'm beginning to seriously doubt if there are absolute truths so I rely on what appears to be logically consistent. Even then, it's still open to greater logical consistencies.

    As an example, CERN's recent challenge to the theory of relativity. Let's see if the results can be reproduced. Go neutrinos, go!
    I'm not too sure about the "postulates" I gave; they were really just examples, thought I do believe that people operate upon these assumptions in daily living. Also, I do not think that these should be "personal", and I do believe in absolute truth.
    I don't know if a search for truth would even make sense if there weren't any absolute truth. How would one find anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    So you must be Christian?

    Isn't Utilitarianism, and Pascal's wager, the converse: Choose the thing that give you the best outcome, versus what punishes you; and believe even when you don't, just in case. ?
    Huh. I always thought Pascal's argument said that you should believe in God, specifically Christianity, because there's no consequence for not believing in him, something which is not at all true (there are plenty of other worldviews that have consequences for disbelief or non-devotion). My statement was false anyway; I've spent a significant amount of time looking into nihilism, which actually has consequences for belief.

  5. #25
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    8,022

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    I'm not too sure about the "postulates" I gave; they were really just examples, thought I do believe that people operate upon these assumptions in daily living. Also, I do not think that these should be "personal", and I do believe in absolute truth.
    I don't know if a search for truth would even make sense if there weren't any absolute truth. How would one find anything?
    It's reliant on what axioms you've chosen as a starting point, whether logical or otherwise.

    As far as a search for absolute truth? A fruitless endeavor, in my opinion and much cause for existential angst. But the search for knowledge which continues to build on logical axioms, continues to make life worth living.

  6. #26
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,482

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    I'm not too sure about the "postulates" I gave; they were really just examples, thought I do believe that people operate upon these assumptions in daily living. Also, I do not think that these should be "personal", and I do believe in absolute truth.
    I don't know if a search for truth would even make sense if there weren't any absolute truth. How would one find anything?
    What I've found is that people don't notice that finding objective truth is not the same thing as understanding what that truth means. They (naturally) have themselves so wrapped up in the equation that they don't know the personal is not only present in their judgments, but also unseperable from determining truth.

  7. #27
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    It's reliant on what axioms you've chosen as a starting point, whether logical or otherwise.

    As far as a search for absolute truth? A fruitless endeavor, in my opinion and much cause for existential angst. But the search for knowledge which continues to build on logical axioms, continues to make life worth living.
    Hmm. While I will agree that searching for ones "own truth" might make life better, but that doesn't mean your own truth is correct. It just means that your own truth is better than the real truth. But then if the real truth is badass awesome, or if it has consequences for not following it, then you're out of luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    What I've found is that people don't notice that finding objective truth is not the same thing as understanding what that truth means. They (naturally) have themselves so wrapped up in the equation that they don't know the personal is not only present in their judgments, but also unseperable from determining truth.
    I'm a bit confused by this, but it sounds like a legitimate point. Can you explain more?

  8. #28
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    8,022

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    Hmm. While I will agree that searching for ones "own truth" might make life better, but that doesn't mean your own truth is correct. It just means that your own truth is better than the real truth. But then if the real truth is badass awesome, or if it has consequences for not following it, then you're out of luck.
    As a quasi-relativist, we'll have to agree to disagree. Consider this. IF 1,000,000 individuals arrive at the same truth, it's possible it is absolute truth. It's also possible that some form of demographical or geographical/cultural correlations between individuals, have created their similar perception of truth.

  9. #29
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,482

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    I'm a bit confused by this, but it sounds like a legitimate point. Can you explain more?
    Well, maybe. I'll try. The concept of truth is already personal spin on it, because our desire to know is utimately tied up in our desire to understand our relationship to the Universe, or maybe even more pragmatically, to keep our ass out of trouble. This is unavoidable, because in order to learn the truth, there has to be an interested party asking for it. Without the ego, truth is just data.. unanalysed, unprocessed, unframed.

    Truth to me is understanding how data affects the person doing the asking. So truth is always tied to ego and can be different depending on the point of view, even if the data is the same. Take nuclear fission. The damn word combination is so portentious and weighted because of what it entails to us, massive energy of creation and distruction. From a true objective point of view, that process is no different from any other chemical reaction in the universe, because there is no subject for it to matter to.

  10. #30
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    As a quasi-relativist, we'll have to agree to disagree. Consider this. IF 1,000,000 individuals arrive at the same truth, it's possible it is absolute truth. It's also possible that some form of demographical or geographical/cultural correlations between individuals, have created their similar perception of truth.
    But that doesn't mean that no absolute truth exists. It just means that these people could be wrong or right about what they think is absolute truth. Thought I do agree that culture plays a big role in what we believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Well, maybe. I'll try. The concept of truth is already personal spin on it, because our desire to know is utimately tied up in our desire to understand our relationship to the Universe, or maybe even more pragmatically, to keep our ass out of trouble. This is unavoidable, because in order to learn the truth, there has to be an interested party asking for it. Without the ego, truth is just data.. unanalysed, unprocessed, unframed.

    Truth to me is understanding how data affects the person doing the asking. So truth is always tied to ego and can be different depending on the point of view, even if the data is the same. Take nuclear fission. The damn word combination is so portentious and weighted because of what it entails to us, massive energy of creation and distruction. From a true objective point of view, that process is no different from any other chemical reaction in the universe, because there is no subject for it to matter to.
    This is an interesting idea, but I still think that truth can be objective. There is still a certain thing happening in a nuclear fission, and if one believes that elements remain unchanged after nuclear fission, one's idea of nuclear fission is incorrect. You could argue that this person would just have a different definition for "nuclear fission", but even in this case the term they are using still applies to a different objective truth, or maybe even an idea that doesn't exist. The term "nuclear fission" is a subjective term, but the term represents an objective reality.

    Take this scenario: a person arrives at the conclusion that there is a god and an afterlife. Another person is an atheist and arrives at the conclusion that there is no god. What happens to each person upon dying? Is there a god for one person and not for the other? You could argue that their definitions for "god" are different, but that won't change the reality of that god existing or not.


    I think it's important to understand how big of a role our culture plays in our beliefs. Going back to the original question of this thread, I think it is helpful to try to drop as many cultural idiosyncrasies as one can, difficult (and often downright impossible) as this might be when trying to find truth. Also, I believe that there are some things in humans that are not cultural, but ingrained; hardwired into our system. Hunger, for example, can be affected by culture, but a theoretical non-cultured human would still be hungry at times.

Similar Threads

  1. Religious people - How would you go about converting someone?
    By EcK in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 11-18-2015, 05:50 PM
  2. [NF] How would one go about starting a small town in the middle of nowhere?
    By The Wailing Specter in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 11-19-2013, 09:02 AM
  3. How would you go about designing an ideal city?
    By Octarine in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 06-18-2011, 11:30 PM
  4. How do I go about finding a print of this?
    By swordpath in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-16-2010, 11:18 PM
  5. North American Union: How Would You Feel/Think About It?
    By heart in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 08-24-2007, 04:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO