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How would you go about finding real truth?

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Where to start? Now that's a difficult question.

I'd like to say that one should start without any presuppositions, realizing that one could be wrong about everything, but one has to start somewhere. Without presuppositions there is no starting point. Even in purely concrete subjects like math there are postulates. To get anywhere, we do have to assume a few things: first off, that human logic at its purest form has some form of inherent correctness, and secondly that our experiences are based on some form or reality around us, even if they aren't always accurate. Once one gets somewhere with these "postulates", then the extent to which these work out confirms their truthfulness, thought I guess one should be ready to accept these being wrong.

I'd also like to point out that if a certain worldview comes without consequences for disbelief, I probably wouldn't bother looking into it much. I guess this is a utilitarian view and sort of an extended version of Pascal's argument, but whatever.

So you must be Christian?

Isn't Utilitarianism, and Pascal's wager, the converse: Choose the thing that give you the best outcome, versus what punishes you; and believe even when you don't, just in case. ?
 

Moiety

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By aligning your life with what you think is true and being willing to fail. And by consistently challenging your basic assumptions about who you are, what you want and what life is all about. Be agnostic about everything. Doubt others. Doubt yourself. Doubt their words and your thoughts and live with the struggle until truth explodes on/in you. Works most of the time for me.

But more importantly realize that MAPS ARE NOT THE TERRITORY. Your map of reality is not the territory. So stick with the territory.
 

gmanyo

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I disagree here. I think any postulates you should start with should be personal. These postulates are somewhat NT flavoured. The first truth is internal, recognizing what you need out of life.

Which truth are we talking about? There are many truths.

What is "really" true? Quite frankly, I'm beginning to seriously doubt if there are absolute truths so I rely on what appears to be logically consistent. Even then, it's still open to greater logical consistencies.

As an example, CERN's recent challenge to the theory of relativity. Let's see if the results can be reproduced. Go neutrinos, go!

I'm not too sure about the "postulates" I gave; they were really just examples, thought I do believe that people operate upon these assumptions in daily living. Also, I do not think that these should be "personal", and I do believe in absolute truth.
I don't know if a search for truth would even make sense if there weren't any absolute truth. How would one find anything?

So you must be Christian?

Isn't Utilitarianism, and Pascal's wager, the converse: Choose the thing that give you the best outcome, versus what punishes you; and believe even when you don't, just in case. ?

Huh. I always thought Pascal's argument said that you should believe in God, specifically Christianity, because there's no consequence for not believing in him, something which is not at all true (there are plenty of other worldviews that have consequences for disbelief or non-devotion). My statement was false anyway; I've spent a significant amount of time looking into nihilism, which actually has consequences for belief.
 

rav3n

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I'm not too sure about the "postulates" I gave; they were really just examples, thought I do believe that people operate upon these assumptions in daily living. Also, I do not think that these should be "personal", and I do believe in absolute truth.
I don't know if a search for truth would even make sense if there weren't any absolute truth. How would one find anything?
It's reliant on what axioms you've chosen as a starting point, whether logical or otherwise.

As far as a search for absolute truth? A fruitless endeavor, in my opinion and much cause for existential angst. But the search for knowledge which continues to build on logical axioms, continues to make life worth living.
 

Qlip

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I'm not too sure about the "postulates" I gave; they were really just examples, thought I do believe that people operate upon these assumptions in daily living. Also, I do not think that these should be "personal", and I do believe in absolute truth.
I don't know if a search for truth would even make sense if there weren't any absolute truth. How would one find anything?

What I've found is that people don't notice that finding objective truth is not the same thing as understanding what that truth means. They (naturally) have themselves so wrapped up in the equation that they don't know the personal is not only present in their judgments, but also unseperable from determining truth.
 

gmanyo

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It's reliant on what axioms you've chosen as a starting point, whether logical or otherwise.

As far as a search for absolute truth? A fruitless endeavor, in my opinion and much cause for existential angst. But the search for knowledge which continues to build on logical axioms, continues to make life worth living.
Hmm. While I will agree that searching for ones "own truth" might make life better, but that doesn't mean your own truth is correct. It just means that your own truth is better than the real truth. But then if the real truth is badass awesome, or if it has consequences for not following it, then you're out of luck.

What I've found is that people don't notice that finding objective truth is not the same thing as understanding what that truth means. They (naturally) have themselves so wrapped up in the equation that they don't know the personal is not only present in their judgments, but also unseperable from determining truth.
I'm a bit confused by this, but it sounds like a legitimate point. Can you explain more?
 

rav3n

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Hmm. While I will agree that searching for ones "own truth" might make life better, but that doesn't mean your own truth is correct. It just means that your own truth is better than the real truth. But then if the real truth is badass awesome, or if it has consequences for not following it, then you're out of luck.
As a quasi-relativist, we'll have to agree to disagree. Consider this. IF 1,000,000 individuals arrive at the same truth, it's possible it is absolute truth. It's also possible that some form of demographical or geographical/cultural correlations between individuals, have created their similar perception of truth.
 

Qlip

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I'm a bit confused by this, but it sounds like a legitimate point. Can you explain more?

Well, maybe. I'll try. The concept of truth is already personal spin on it, because our desire to know is utimately tied up in our desire to understand our relationship to the Universe, or maybe even more pragmatically, to keep our ass out of trouble. This is unavoidable, because in order to learn the truth, there has to be an interested party asking for it. Without the ego, truth is just data.. unanalysed, unprocessed, unframed.

Truth to me is understanding how data affects the person doing the asking. So truth is always tied to ego and can be different depending on the point of view, even if the data is the same. Take nuclear fission. The damn word combination is so portentious and weighted because of what it entails to us, massive energy of creation and distruction. From a true objective point of view, that process is no different from any other chemical reaction in the universe, because there is no subject for it to matter to.
 

gmanyo

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As a quasi-relativist, we'll have to agree to disagree. Consider this. IF 1,000,000 individuals arrive at the same truth, it's possible it is absolute truth. It's also possible that some form of demographical or geographical/cultural correlations between individuals, have created their similar perception of truth.
But that doesn't mean that no absolute truth exists. It just means that these people could be wrong or right about what they think is absolute truth. Thought I do agree that culture plays a big role in what we believe.

Well, maybe. I'll try. The concept of truth is already personal spin on it, because our desire to know is utimately tied up in our desire to understand our relationship to the Universe, or maybe even more pragmatically, to keep our ass out of trouble. This is unavoidable, because in order to learn the truth, there has to be an interested party asking for it. Without the ego, truth is just data.. unanalysed, unprocessed, unframed.

Truth to me is understanding how data affects the person doing the asking. So truth is always tied to ego and can be different depending on the point of view, even if the data is the same. Take nuclear fission. The damn word combination is so portentious and weighted because of what it entails to us, massive energy of creation and distruction. From a true objective point of view, that process is no different from any other chemical reaction in the universe, because there is no subject for it to matter to.
This is an interesting idea, but I still think that truth can be objective. There is still a certain thing happening in a nuclear fission, and if one believes that elements remain unchanged after nuclear fission, one's idea of nuclear fission is incorrect. You could argue that this person would just have a different definition for "nuclear fission", but even in this case the term they are using still applies to a different objective truth, or maybe even an idea that doesn't exist. The term "nuclear fission" is a subjective term, but the term represents an objective reality.

Take this scenario: a person arrives at the conclusion that there is a god and an afterlife. Another person is an atheist and arrives at the conclusion that there is no god. What happens to each person upon dying? Is there a god for one person and not for the other? You could argue that their definitions for "god" are different, but that won't change the reality of that god existing or not.


I think it's important to understand how big of a role our culture plays in our beliefs. Going back to the original question of this thread, I think it is helpful to try to drop as many cultural idiosyncrasies as one can, difficult (and often downright impossible) as this might be when trying to find truth. Also, I believe that there are some things in humans that are not cultural, but ingrained; hardwired into our system. Hunger, for example, can be affected by culture, but a theoretical non-cultured human would still be hungry at times.
 

Qlip

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This is an interesting idea, but I still think that truth can be objective. There is still a certain thing happening in a nuclear fission, and if one believes that elements remain unchanged after nuclear fission, one's idea of nuclear fission is incorrect. You could argue that this person would just have a different definition for "nuclear fission", but even in this case the term they are using still applies to a different objective truth, or maybe even an idea that doesn't exist. The term "nuclear fission" is a subjective term, but the term represents an objective reality.

Take this scenario: a person arrives at the conclusion that there is a god and an afterlife. Another person is an atheist and arrives at the conclusion that there is no god. What happens to each person upon dying? Is there a god for one person and not for the other? You could argue that their definitions for "god" are different, but that won't change the reality of that god existing or not.

I agree.. but the objectivity takes second seat to whether and how it matters. And the things that really matter have a lot less objective existence than nuclear fission, they are things like self worth and feeling safe and such. Some of those things can only be worked with in certain ways not having to do with objectivity at all and are more real to us the nuclear fission. The more important truths are subjective.
 

gmanyo

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I agree.. but the objectivity takes second seat to whether and how it matters. And the things that really matter have a lot less objective existence than nuclear fission, they are things like self worth and feeling safe and such. Some of those things can only be worked with in certain ways not having to do with objectivity at all and are more real to us the nuclear fission. The more important truths are subjective.
It depends on which truth is true. If Hinduism is right then sure, your own personal thing matters more than some objective truth or whatever. On the other hand, if Islaam is true, then you should be really worried about objective truth.
 

Qlip

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It depends on which truth is true. If Hinduism is right then sure, your own personal thing matters more than some objective truth or whatever. On the other hand, if Islaam is true, then you should be really worried about objective truth.

What do you use as a measure to decide what's worth worrying about and what matters and what doesn't? What measuring stick do you use?

EDIT: Ah, wait, I see.. you're talking about life after death stuff. What about what matters living in the now?
 

rav3n

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What I'm completely failing to understand, is any correlation between religion and truth, particularly objective truth.
 

Qlip

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What I'm completely failing to understand, is any correlation between religion and truth, particularly objective truth.

I slippery sloped it. :D I'm trying to figure it myself...

Ah okay. Well, I was arguing that objective truth is of less importance than what it means. Then it slid into religion.
 

rav3n

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I slippery sloped it. :D I'm trying to figure it myself...

Ah okay. Well, I was arguing that objective truth is of less importance than what it means. Then it slid into religion.
Ooohhh...it was you! You will be punished accordingly!
 

gmanyo

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What do you use as a measure to decide what's worth worrying about and what matters and what doesn't? What measuring stick do you use?

EDIT: Ah, wait, I see.. you're talking about life after death stuff. What about what matters living in the now?
For one, how you live now could possibly determine the afterlife. Also, if something like Christianity is true, then the best and most fulfilling way to live your life is according to Christianity.

What I'm completely failing to understand, is any correlation between religion and truth, particularly objective truth.
I don't see how one could not correlate the two. Islaam says that there was a god that created the universe and everything he says is objectively true. This might or might not be correct.

EDIT

I'm not trying to argue religion, by the way; religion is just an easy example.

EDIT 2

I prefer the term "worldview".
 

Qlip

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For one, how you live now could possibly determine the afterlife. Also, if something like Christianity is true, then the best and most fulfilling way to live your life is according to Christianity.


I don't see how one could not correlate the two. Islaam says that there was a god that created the universe and everything he says is objectively true. This might or might not be correct.

Oh, I dunno. I took a completely bottom up approach than a top down one. To sum up: If God wants you to know something, he would making it completely apparent. Otherwise, there's a credibility issue. That's where I started, the other way will drive you insane.
 

Mole

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The Scientific Method and Revelation

There is the truth and the Truth with a capital T.

We can arrive at a very close approximate of the truth using the scientific method of empirical experiment and reason.

But the Truth with a capital T is arrived at by revelation.
 

gmanyo

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Oh, I dunno. I took a completely bottom up approach than a top down one. To sum up: If God wants you to know something, he would making it completely apparent. Otherwise, there's a credibility issue. That's where I started, the other way will drive you insane.
I can see arguing that if a certain god existed he would make himself known, but maybe there's a God out there who desires that his people search for objective truth before he shows himself. Also, it could be something completely different that is important to believe or follow. One isn't able to figure this out by looking inwardly, and I personally would not want to risk the negative consequences of some of the worldviews out there just because I give my beliefs a personal foundation. Though, to be fair, if the truth is undesirable (take nihilism, for example) then one risks an unhappy life in finding it, but I perceive the other risk to be a greater one.
 
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