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View Poll Results: I interpret it to be

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  • completely literal

    0 0%
  • mostly literal, with some parables/metaphors

    6 12.50%
  • mostly parables/metaphors with historical fact

    30 62.50%
  • complete nonsense

    11 22.92%
  • other

    9 18.75%
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Thread: The Bible

  1. #51
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I know a hardcore atheist who argues that none of exodus could be true because the impact which a massive slave desertion would have had on the Egyptian socio-economic order never registered with any independent/alternative or Egyptian mytho-historical source.

    Mind you I told him that no Egyptian source would be liable to want to brag about that sort of shit, in all likelihood it would have been something which the thought police of their day would have sought to revise out of their histories and memory. That said I also dont believe that socio-economic orders would register hits like that in the same way, for instance, a modern one would a general strike, its the application of modern mindsets to ancient conditions again.
    Well, it wasn't just that, it's just one part of a multi-pronged argument; there's also various claims, such as the wilderness in question could not support the number of people in question for the time period noted and especially leave no trace of their nomad existence across that area, and that key features of the story (such as the "parting of the Red Sea") don't really have any identifiable location in that region that would support the narrative.

    At last check, prominent Israeli archaeologists are asserting that Israel wasn't even an outside nation but actually were Canaanites in origin, and that the massive kingdom of David as described never really existed, based on their best assessment of the evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    On one count you scored. The Egyptians were absolutely notorious for omitting anything and everything that looked bad, going as far as methodically chiseling over any evidence of disgraced pharaohs. But the lecturer seemed to think the number was very silly compared to the world population at the time.
    I'd also say basing an entire argument on "They were just too embarrassed to record it" is not a dependable strategy, especially when people are discussing the definite absence of evidence confirming much of the record and its grand scale, and when much of the story that people are saying they were too embarrassed to record is full of things like huge plagues of disease and animals, natural disasters, ocean-partings, and the destruction of the leader in question + his entire army. It's the kind of strategy that can work in a situation where the information is vague and the events in question aren't so grandiose/extreme, but not here as a main argument, here.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #52
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Suspect, yes, but not entirely useless. That's my standpoint at least. It's one source among others.

    There's also some elements in these stories that aren't entirely miraculous. Take the Exodus story, for example. It's very possible that there was a slave revolt. For one, the Egyptians definitely owned slaves, and two, the Jews were among some of them. I don't see any reason to doubt that there was a core group - possibly family (Aaron, Moses, and Miriam) that instigated it either. This is plausible. The bible kind of seems credibile for the fact that it paints Moses as insecure, and just a spiritual leader. He stuttered, while his brother was better with people.. and his sister seemed headstrong. Most heroes are painted as shooting lightning bolts out of their asses, but Moses was a stuttering weirdo who said he had visions and such. Entirely plausible.

    It's also plausible that the Egyptians gave chase and the Jews won. The Bible's story is definitely in the far fetched miraculous side of things.. what with the ocean swallowing up Pharoah and all that. But I could see it another way. Perhaps the Jews crossed a spot when there were low tides. By the time the Egyptians caught up, the high tide came, and they got stuck in the mire. And considering what Egypt looks like, I'd say it might have been more swamp like than an entire ocean. And perhaps the Jews either saw their chance to bolt or maybe they picked them off while the Egyptians were stuck. Egypt was heavily dependent on using chariots. This would have really screwed them up.

    There's been a misinterpretation in some translations that say it was the "Red Sea" - but the Hebrew says the spot was called the "Sea of Reeds". This changes the story significantly to something that sounds more like mine, rather than the Charleton Heston version.
    You seem to know a lot about it. Problem is we are entering into the realm of conjectures here. Lots of maybes and perhaps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Sick? What does that mean? Bad? I dont think its a bad thing you're describing, in fact I think its awesome.
    I don't have a problem with their beliefs. But this is the kind of person that is just following the script. Had this same guy born in Iran he would probably be dreaming about his 72 virgins. A bit extreme but that is why I think it is sick. Easily brainwashed. Not every believer is like that, of course.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  3. #53
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    but actually were Canaanites in origin, and that the massive kingdom of David as described never really existed, based on their best assessment of the evidence
    Why I can't believe this is that Abraham was said to be from modern Iraq/Babylon. The story, as you know, is that he packed up and settled west. Flourishing and eventually becoming a population big enough for their later histories.

    But back to my point, Babylon was never exactly looked kindly upon by Jews. Why would they admit that the patriarch of their own nation was Babylonian, and yet being in Caananite in actuality doesn't add up to me. By the time that much of the Hebrew bible was either being written or compiled, they had already come back from their exile in Babylon. You would think at least some might have been bitter enough to want to edit some of their origins, but there's no evidence of that.

  4. #54
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    A barrel of laughs though.
    It really is.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I don't have a problem with their beliefs. But this is the kind of person that is just following the script. Had this same guy born in Iran he would probably be dreaming about his 72 virgins. A bit extreme but that is why I think it is sick. Easily brainwashed. Not every believer is like that, of course.
    That's not really something I can relate to, if I died and was treated to 72 virgins I think it'd be a nightmare, that's meant to be some sort of sexual reference right? I never understood why people eroticise virginity.

  6. #56
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    You seem to know a lot about it. Problem is we are entering into the realm of conjectures here. Lots of maybes and perhaps.
    Fair enough. I'm just trying to single out plausible elements in the story, rather than completely writing it off. I don't see why it's necessary for it to be completely made up. I think that puts the burden on you just as much, if not moreso.

    It's the same with the story of Troy. I doubt that Achilles was an invincible warrior except for his heel - but I could at least accept that there was an Achilles who kicked a lot of ass, and got shot in a weak spot.

  7. #57
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I voted mostly parables/metaphors with historical fact.

    @KDude you seem to have read the same books as me. I'm an agnostic atheist but I find this stuff really fascinating. Has anyone read Walking the Bible: A Journey by Land Through the Five Books of Moses? Its really interesting discussion of these things!

    I have been to most of the holy sites in Egypt, Israel, Jordan and Palestinian West Bank. I must say its very strange (well, for an atheist) when you're are standing in a place where significant events occurred in the Bible. And its even stranger when sites match the Bible with some accuracy. For example, I walked from the Gihon spring to the Pool of Siloam through the 500m tunnel in the City of David, which King Hezekiah commissioned in preparation for a seige by the Assyrians in 8th century BC. Here are the verses where it is mentioned:

    2 Kings 20:20

    20 And the rest of the acts of Hezeki'ah, and all his might, and how he made a pool, and a conduit, and brought water into the city, are they not written in the book of the Chronicles of the kings of Judah?

    2 Chronicles 32:2-4, 32:30

    2 And when Hezeki'ah saw that Sennach'erib was come, and that he was purposed to fight against Jerusalem,
    3 he took counsel with his princes and his mighty men to stop the waters of the fountains which were without the city: and they did help him.
    4 So there was gathered much people together, who stopped all the fountains, and the brook that ran through the midst of the land, saying, Why should the kings of Assyria come, and find much water?
    ...
    30 This same Hezeki'ah also stopped the upper watercourse of Gihon, and brought it straight down to the west side of the city of David. And Hezeki'ah prospered in all his works.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  8. #58
    F CK all I need is U ilikeitlikethat's Avatar
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    The Bible was a huge learning program; To get us all reading more.

    Make it something so powerful, and give answers to things that are so true like life it's self with a story of your creation. Also, rules were added in, keep the masses in line, y'know, that sort of thing, don't steal, don't rape don't kill type of shit/stuff/truths, y'know... It's a good book. It gives us hope if we follow the relgion that great miricles will happen to us like the great tales in the book. Not tall tales exactly, but great as in; fortunate or blessed.
    Promising good things will happen to us if we worship this book with a fail safe infinate wisdom for just incase it's not. Still gives us hope though, good book.

  9. #59
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    Fun facts.

    Book: What are we up to, sweetheart?
    River Tam: Fixing your Bible.
    Book: I, um... What?
    River Tam: Bible's broken. Contradictions, false logistics - doesn't make sense.
    Book: No, no. You-you-you can't...
    River Tam: So we'll integrate non-progressional evolution theory with God's creation of Eden. Eleven inherent metaphoric parallels already there. Eleven. Important number. Prime number. One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. Noah's ark is a problem.
    Book: Really?
    River Tam: We'll have to call it early quantum state phenomenon. Only way to fit 5000 species of mammal on the same boat.

  10. #60
    WALMART
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    A good guy was born.


    Hundreds of years of interpretation follows.

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