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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I think it's very necessary. Some people will just persist or try to take advantage of others if you don't. They will dangle their truth over people's heads, and in the worst cases, bully and control them with it. I'd rather just be proactive about setting certain boundaries, rather than wait for that to happen. Whoever wants to proclaim they know better than others without any evidence will have to do it through power alone. And they're free to try it.
    I never figured you for a totalitarian...


  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I never figured you for a totalitarian...

    Lol. I'm not into controlling people's thoughts. They can think what they want. I just mean at a certain point, they need to shut up. When their thoughts pour out into the social/political sphere, I expect more truth than "just because". I'm more about challenging anyone like this than controlling. People should recognize that there are unknowns (and ideally, continue investigating what is or isn't unknown.. some will come up with an answer this way). Enabling bullshit isn't helping anything. If that's totalitarian, so be it.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Spurgeon's Avatar
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    KDude's not trying to limit anyone else.

    His being quick to call everything bullshit is a self-imposed limitation.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Lol. I'm not into controlling people's thoughts. They can think what they want. I just mean at a certain point, they need to shut up. When their thoughts pour out into the social/political sphere, I expect more truth than "just because". I'm more about challenging anyone like this than controlling. People should recognize that there are unknowns (and ideally, continue investigating what is or isn't unknown.. some will come up with an answer this way). Enabling bullshit isn't helping anything. If that's totalitarian, so be it.
    I prefer free speech.

    If you want to be the idiot telling everyone Jesus is coming back and they're all gunna burn in hell: feel free.

    I will likewise, if I so choose, exercise my freedom to scoff at, mock, and/or ridicule you.

    Frankly, though, the part that made me question your judgment is that these kind of people, the people who deserve to be scoffed at, mocked, and ridiculed: they're generally not the ones who are willing to also say, "Oh, yeah, but this is just my faith. I could totally be wrong!"

    I just found it rather off-putting that even to people who are willing to say such a thing, you still want them to shut the hell up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    KDude's not trying to limit anyone else.
    How is he not, if he says they should all shut up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    His being quick to call everything bullshit is a self-imposed limitation.
    I dunno... get him talking about Kierkegaard and you might see a different side...


  5. #85
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Keirkegaard's cool to me because he fully admits to resting on faith. He's the kind of faith centered person I respect. I like his honesty about it. He's fully aware how frightening that life/the universe/and the unknown can be, but presents faith as a noble act in the face of that.

  6. #86
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    That's why I was confused.

    Isn't Kierkegaard's positioned essentially the same as the people who would say, "Oh, yeah, but this is just my faith. I could totally be wrong!"?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    How is he not, if he says they should all shut up?
    Wait--you were serious about that? I thought you were just giving him a hard time.

    I don't see any indication that he wants to control anyone. I think he's saying that these people ought to take it upon themselves to shut up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    Isn't Kierkegaard's positioned essentially the same as the people who would say, "Oh, yeah, but this is just my faith. I could totally be wrong!"?
    Yes. And that's not faith at all. That's doubt.

    Kierkegaard was an existentialist, not a Christian. But that's a whole other topic.

  8. #88
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    That's why I was confused.

    Isn't Kierkegaard's positioned essentially the same as the people who would say, "Oh, yeah, but this is just my faith. I could totally be wrong!"?
    Pretty much. He's more like the champion of the "leap of faith". His position was that faith was inextricably tied with doubt. Anything else was just simply being credulous. That a person of true faith would first recognize that there was a cliff. Then faith willingly jumps off the cliff. Faith is not ignoring the cliff.

    The Apostle Paul in the bible, more or less, infers the same thing. 1 Corinthians indicates how he at least recognizes how his own beliefs can look, objectively speaking.

    "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [1 Cor 1:21-24]

    He recognized the two other points of view, but didn't try to appease them or make his religion look legitimate in that light. Those who demand "signs" (i.e. evidence) and those who look for "wisdom" (a vague term, but in the context.. I would say anything that falls under a intellectually satisfying systematic explanation of the universe). He totally admits that what he preaches is foolishness. And does it anyways.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Pretty much. He's more like the champion of the "leap of faith". His position was that faith was inextricably tied with doubt. Anything else was just simply being credulous. That a person of true faith would first recognize that there was a cliff. Then faith willingly jumps off the cliff. Faith is not ignoring the cliff.

    The Apostle Paul in the bible, more or less, infers the same thing. 1 Corinthians indicates how he at least recognizes how his own beliefs can look, objectively speaking.

    "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [1 Cor 1:21-24]

    He recognized the two other points of view, but didn't try to appease them or make his religion look legitimate in that light. Those who demand "signs" (i.e. evidence) and those who look for "wisdom" (a vague term, but in the context.. I would say anything that falls under intellectually satisfying systematic explanation of the universe). He totally admits that what he preaches is foolishness. And does it anyways.
    You can NOT be serious.

    This is the worst mis-interpretation of Scripture I have ever seen in my life.

    On the contrary, Paul gave up everything for the sake of the Gospel, because he knew for certain that what he was preaching was the absolute Truth.

  10. #90
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    Paul gave up everything for the sake of the Gospel, because he knew for certain that what he was preaching was the absolute Truth.
    He didn't know for certain, else he wouldn't have been a champion of "faith". He had faith that it was the absolute truth. He didn't know it was the absolute truth. Big difference. He even butted heads with other Christians on how faith was the foundation for everything they stood for.

    I'm just simply reading. If you want to exagerrate your disagreement on how my interpretation is the "worst" of all, then feel free. If getting dramatic is your way of winning, then you already lose any credibility. I'm sure that I can provide a thousand "worse" interpretations than that. Something involving goat testicles perhaps.. that might be worse. Sky's the limit.

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