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  1. #71

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    I can see truth in things verifiable by my five senses. Truth in relationships is more difficult to verify and changes with emotions and perceptions. Truth in things I can't verify seems to rely on pragmatism, I really don't care as long as it works. It seems abstract truth exists, wisdom in how to live in the world but...

  2. #72
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    the nicest part of searching for truth, is starting with the thought of it not existing.

    (for some reason this approach seems to lend itself beautifully well to things like philosophy and anthropology, but less so to the arts.)

    to answer your question, Nico: i see two types of truth: instantaneous and evolutionary truth. there is a third, infinitely more valuable, but i have limited access to it...it mainly reveals itself in my dreams and through tricks i play on my brain.
    I may be kindly, I am ordinarily gentle, but in my line of business I am obliged to will terribly what I will at all.
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  3. #73
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You can leave it at that.

    Agnosticism is alright.

    I would still call it lazy, in this case.

    But it's certainly more acceptable than outright disbelief.

    Saying truth doesn't exist is tantamount to denying the existence of reality.

    Being agnostic about whether we can really know anything about reality: at least a little more acceptable.

    If you're only 17, you still have much room for growth...

    Consider this: by stating that you're not sure whether we can know the truth, you are stating a truth claim, no?
    yes, i am lazy. and not just intellectually.

    i am stating a truth claim that objective truth/reality may or may not exist, which may or may not be true.

    when i say "i don't believe in truth", i'm more referring to the idea of certainty or concreteness people have about reality from accumulation of knowledge.

    "i don't believe in it" = "i have no faith in it outside of pragmatic use"
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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    According to your conception of truth, what is required for statement 'x'* to be true?
    I'm not particularly impressed with status quo x or what the majority says x should be. I see the possibilities of what x could be and that's what I want to get to the bottom of. The first step might be to identify the prevailing context that influences x and manipulate it. Compare and contrast. Etc.

  5. #75
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    Smile Guessing and Testing

    Probably the most important thing about truth is that we are mistaken a lot of the time. Our senses deceive us. Our thoughts deceive us. Society deceives us. So we need a way to confirm or disconfirm something we perceive as true. And it is the scientific method that enable us to winnow the truth from fable, from illlusion, from delusion, from wish fulfullment, from ideology, from social imperatives, and even disinformation.

    For two hundred thousand years, without the scientific method, we believed wrongly, that the Sun went round the Earth, but just recently the scientific method told us, counter-intuitively, that the Earth goes round the Sun. Who would have guessed?

    And so many things the scientific method tells us are those things we could not have guessed.

    Yet for two hundred thousand years we have been guessing at the truth, and now we can guess and test our guesses against evidence and reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And it is the scientific method that enable us to winnow the truth from fable, from illlusion, from delusion, from wish fulfullment, from ideology, from social imperatives, and even disinformation.Yet for two hundred thousand years we have been guessing at the truth, and now we can guess and test our guesses against evidence and reason.
    And what of the things that the scientific method cannot tell us?

  7. #77
    Senior Member Spurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And what of the things that the scientific method cannot tell us?
    Seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And what of the things that the scientific method cannot tell us?

    You shut up (for your own sake and others) and admit that things then come down to faith or chance. This is what any self-respecting spiritual or atheistic person does. They don't proclaim they know the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    You shut up (for your own sake and others) and admit that things then come down to faith or chance. This is what any self-respecting spiritual or atheistic person does. They don't proclaim they know the truth.
    I'm not sure why you'd have to shut up.

    Admitting that these things come down to faith would seem enough.

    Telling people they have to shut up would seem a bit (and unnecessarily) aggressive.

    ETA: There are also whole realms that you seem not to have considered. Off the top of my head, common sense, self-knowledge, experience, these can all tell us things that are true; I would not say that our knowledge of these things would most suitably fall under the umbrellas of faith or chance. I'm sure there are others as well. Just need to think about them. Oh, intuition, that would probably be a good one. It can be wrong, but it can also be right. It can even be right a very high percentage of the time, and, in those cases, I'd be willing to call it more than just chance, and faith would probably not be the most suitable umbrella for it to fall under.

  10. #80
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I'm not sure why you'd have to shut up.

    Admitting that these things come down to faith would seem enough.

    Telling people they have to shut up would seem a bit (and unnecessarily) aggressive.
    I think it's very necessary. Some people will just persist or try to take advantage of others if you don't. They will dangle their truth over people's heads, and in the worst cases, bully and control them with it. I'd rather just be proactive about setting certain boundaries, rather than wait for that to happen. Whoever wants to proclaim they know better than others without any evidence will have to do it through power alone. And they're free to try it.

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