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  1. #21
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    Collectivisim and Communisim are one and the same.
    Then Individualism and Anarchy are one and the same.

    Don't try to arbitrarily redefine the terms. That is annoying NTJ tactic number 2 on my list.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...j-tactics.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Then Individualism and Anarchy are one and the same.

    Don't try to arbitrarily redefine the terms. That is annoying NTJ tactic number 2 on my list.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...j-tactics.html
    Individualism and Anarchy are not the same.

    Just as Collectivism and Communism are not one and the same.

    In both cases one is a subset of the other. Democracy could be the result of Anarchy, but even that Anarchy is collectivist to achieve change.

  3. #23
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    Individualism and Anarchy are not the same.

    Just as Collectivism and Communism are not one and the same.

    In both cases one is a subset of the other. Democracy could be the result of Anarchy, but even that Anarchy is collectivist to achieve change.
    Precisely, it could just as easily be argued that democracy "with its emphasis on notions of social contract and the collective will of the people" is a form of collectivism. Moderation between individualistic and collectivists principles are ideal in a mature and developed society.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Precisely, it could just as easily be argued that democracy "with its emphasis on notions of social contract and the collective will of the people" is a form of collectivism. Moderation between individualistic and collectivists principles are ideal in a mature and developed society.
    Exactly. You're in agreement with me.

    Thats 1-0 to me in the argument rounds .

    *Ps: watch out for us NTJ types, we're always prepared to plays devils advocate *

  5. #25
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    Exactly. You're in agreement with me.

    Thats 1-0 to me in the argument rounds .

    *Ps: watch out for us NTJ types, we're always prepared to plays devils advocate *
    Any day that I'm in agreement with an INTJ is either a victory for all man kind or a cold day in hell. We'll just leave it at that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  6. #26
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Democracy has been completely fetishized in recent history, when it is supposed to be the means, not the end.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #27
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Democracy has been completely fetishized in recent history, when it is supposed to be the means, not the end.
    That's what I'm saying all the time.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #28
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The first sentence of every paragraph is the premise?
    In our case, yes.

    Ah, but the people who worked in sweatshops are traditionally people from small rural villages. Try again.
    That's an ignoratio elenchi. It does absolutely nothing to harm my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    individualism is about seeing self as independent of others, collectivism is about relating self to others (interpersonal)...
    Collectivism isn't about the relating the self to others; it's about a collective whole. There is no 'self' in collectivist thought. Collectivists are concerned with the general will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    We're no more individualistic than we were before. In the rhetoric we're supposed to be, but by and large, individualism is basically discouraged.

    People live their 'individualism' if it could be called that, vicariously through movies like Juno or TV shows like House, where the star character possesses a standout and or daring persona.

    I'd say 90-95% of the people, at least in america, at best, pretend; we play at individualism, and let our quasi-adventurous bombast do the rest of the work for us.

    It's easy to tell stories.
    I think you and I have different definitions of individualism. I'm talking about reliance on the self alone to live; without help from others (or at least the perception of aidless living). What you're talking about are people who express their individuality through the media; you're referring to artistic self-expression and the like. I'm not interested in this. I'm thinking about individualism in the political and societal sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    "All people are inherently greedy, its just that individual greed is harnessed in a capitalist society leading to the benefit of all, whereas in a communist society it is suppressed but mainfests itself in other ways".

    That statement is very true. You only need to look at all these collectivist economies wearing orange and going capitalist to see what is most favoured by the people.
    Absolutely. Communism cannot work and never will because people, by nature, are greedy and selfish. It is a fact of life that one must accept. Just as you can't stop people from desiring other people, you can't stop people from being greedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Historically, capitalistic endeavors have lead to exploitation of collectivistic cultures. Take colonialism. Columbus comes across the ocean, commits horrible atrocities against the native inhabitants. Next comes the conquistadors who label the natives of lands as "sodomoites" so they can justify the raping and pillaging of the lands. Later come European settlers who force the Natives off their communal lands. Later, the United States takes up policies of extermination, removal, or forceful assimilation of the natives. The slave trade booms and the ancestors of African Americans are forced to labor for the white land owners. Later immigration begins to boom in America and the the traditional familial immigrants are pushed into working low wage dangerous factory jobs, where they could blacklisted if they complained and were fired once they were sick or injured.

    Capitalism does not have a good historical track record.
    All the above mentioned cases have absolutely nothing to do with capitalism. That was about power, not money. Capitalism is primarily about money; that was about occupation of land. Capitalism hadn't even been invented by then. Plus, I'd just like to mention that the central American civilisations were just as greedy and corrupt as we were. Any you wonder why. Well, could be something to with human nature. Just a thought.

    That is a value judgement. I believe everyone has an agenda. Not everyone's primary agenda is their own self preservation and promotion.
    I disagree. Those who supposedly supercede this desire e.g. Mother Theresa, don't truly supercede it. There is always a deep, underlying desire to either promote oneself, preserve oneself, or both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    If you want to talk about less advanced or less powerful people and how they are exploited, then thats nothing to do with individualistic capitalism. Did Native Americans not form tribes and kill each other.. is that not expolitation.
    Again, good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Then Individualism and Anarchy are one and the same.
    Incorrect. Individualism and anarchism are by no means synonymous with one another. It is perfectly logical to find collectivist anarchists; this is essentially the end state of true communism; the kind of communism thought up by Marx. Of course, it was an ideal (and a nice ideal it was), and it could never occur.

  9. #29
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Collectivism isn't about the relating the self to others; it's about a collective whole. There is no 'self' in collectivist thought. Collectivists are concerned with the general will.
    There is self in collectivist thought... self being part of a group. I come from a collectivistic culture. The emphasis has always been to think about what you can do for the group. Collectivism isn't Hive Mind...

    But that was not my point... you did not address my question in what Kiddo called as the typical NTJ debate style.

    Please comment on this contradiction. What are you trying to say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I've noticed that over time, people are becoming more and more individualistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I disagree. I don't think all the Greeks or all the Romans or all the Babylonians collectively gave a shit about their fellow man's feelings. You get just as many interpersonal people now as you did then.
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    If you have as many interpersonal people right now as you did before... where is the extra individualistic people coming from?

  10. #30
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    All the above mentioned cases have absolutely nothing to do with capitalism. That was about power, not money. Capitalism is primarily about money; that was about occupation of land. Capitalism hadn't even been invented by then. Plus, I'd just like to mention that the central American civilisations were just as greedy and corrupt as we were. Any you wonder why. Well, could be something to with human nature. Just a thought.
    Capitalism is about resources, not just money. Land is a resource.

    Yeah, this is heading down a road of arbitrary redefinition, or good ol NTJ tactic #2, since it doesn't seem we have the same definition for any of the concepts we have discussed, and I know I am using the common usage ones. I'll just take my leave of this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

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