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  1. #11
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    ...
    You took the first and last line of my argument, asserted your own opinions, and never even addressed the main points I made to support my thoughts.

    Hence, your argument is void.

    The fact of the matter is, individualistic culture has been successful because it has forcefully exploited every collectivistic culture it has encountered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #12
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    Although, people now probably have become more materialistic and less interpersonal relationship based.
    I disagree. I don't think all the Greeks or all the Romans or all the Babylonians collectively gave a shit about their fellow man's feelings. You get just as many interpersonal people now as you did then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    You took the first and last line of my argument, asserted your own opinions, and never even addressed the main points I made to support my thoughts.
    Did you ever study logic? If the premise is false, what's the point in looking at the rest of the argument?

    The fact of the matter is, individualistic culture has been successful because it has forcefully exploited every collectivistic culture it has encountered.
    Incorrect. Take the countries that have sweatshops in them when once they did not. They were by no means collectivist. People were just as individualistic as the capitalists who built in their countries; they simply had a different mode of being, and lived on a farm instead of in a factory bunkbed.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Did you ever study logic? If the premise is false, what's the point in looking at the rest of the argument?
    The first sentence of every paragraph is the premise?

    Incorrect. Take the countries that have sweatshops in them when once they did not. They were by no means collectivist. People were just as individualistic as the capitalists who built in their countries; they simply had a different mode of being, and lived on a farm instead of in a factory bunkbed.
    Ah, but the people who worked in sweatshops are traditionally people from small rural villages. Try again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  4. #14
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I've noticed that over time, people are becoming more and more individualistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I disagree. I don't think all the Greeks or all the Romans or all the Babylonians collectively gave a shit about their fellow man's feelings. You get just as many interpersonal people now as you did then.
    You confuse me...

    individualism is opposite of collectivism?

    individualism is about seeing self as independent of others, collectivism is about relating self to others (interpersonal)...

    If you have as many interpersonal people right now as you did before... where is the extra individualistic people coming from?

  5. #15
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Dude what are you talking about?

    We're no more individualistic than we were before. In the rhetoric we're supposed to be, but by and large, individualism is basically discouraged.

    People live their 'individualism' if it could be called that, vicariously through movies like Juno or TV shows like House, where the star character possesses a standout and or daring persona.

    I'd say 90-95% of the people, at least in america, at best, pretend; we play at individualism, and let our quasi-adventurous bombast do the rest of the work for us.

    It's easy to tell stories.
    we fukin won boys

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Dude what are you talking about?

    We're no more individualistic than we were before. In the rhetoric we're supposed to be, but by and large, individualism is basically discouraged.

    People live their 'individualism' if it could be called that, vicariously through movies like Juno or TV shows like House, where the star character possesses a standout and or daring persona.

    I'd say 90-95% of the people, at least in america, at best, pretend; we play at individualism, and let our quasi-adventurous bombast do the rest of the work for us.

    It's easy to tell stories.
    True, the individual liberties in this country have been falling to the wayside but that doesn't change the fact that the average American values independent freedom and rights. But meh, my point was made and obviously completely misunderstood by people trying to be "logical" :rolli: so no sense wasting my time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The fact of the matter is, individualistic culture has been successful because it has forcefully exploited every collectivistic culture it has encountered.
    Actually, I think you are slightly wrong here. You are sort of implying that "capitalism" is more individualistic and hence the destroyer of "Collectivist" (Communist) scenario's.

    One thing I read when I was about 10 I have always remembered... that is

    "All people are inherently greedy, its just that individual greed is harnessed in a capitalist society leading to the benefit of all, whereas in a communist society it is suppressed but mainfests itself in other ways".

    That statement is very true. You only need to look at all these collectivist economies wearing orange and going capitalist to see what is most favoured by the people.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I disagree. I don't think all the Greeks or all the Romans or all the Babylonians collectively gave a shit about their fellow man's feelings. You get just as many interpersonal people now as you did then.
    Personal reward is far higher in the modern economy. People are more self centric.

    I think the much lower propensity to have children is a pretty good indicator of that. The fact that there are more and more 1 person households is another statistic.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    Actually, I think you are slightly wrong here. You are sort of implying that "capitalism" is more individualistic and hence the destroyer of "Collectivist" (Communist) scenario's.
    Historically, capitalistic endeavors have lead to exploitation of collectivistic cultures. Take colonialism. Columbus comes across the ocean, commits horrible atrocities against the native inhabitants. Next comes the conquistadors who label the natives of lands as "sodomoites" so they can justify the raping and pillaging of the lands. Later come European settlers who force the Natives off their communal lands. Later, the United States takes up policies of extermination, removal, or forceful assimilation of the natives. The slave trade booms and the ancestors of African Americans are forced to labor for the white land owners. Later immigration begins to boom in America and the the traditional familial immigrants are pushed into working low wage dangerous factory jobs, where they could blacklisted if they complained and were fired once they were sick or injured.

    Capitalism does not have a good historical track record.

    "All people are inherently greedy, its just that individual greed is harnessed in a capitalist society leading to the benefit of all, whereas in a communist society it is suppressed but mainfests itself in other ways".
    That is a value judgement. I believe everyone has an agenda. Not everyone's primary agenda is their own self preservation and promotion.

    That statement is very true. You only need to look at all these collectivist economies wearing orange and going capitalist to see what is most favoured by the people.
    Communism is not a synonym of collectivism. In fact, the argument isn't even about the merits of capitalism, which there are many, but the faults found in individualistic capitalism promoting the exploitation of collectivistic cultures. Of course if you want to make the argument that Native Americans were communists then I would love to hear it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    but the faults found in individualistic capitalism promoting the exploitation of collectivistic cultures. Of course if you want to make the argument that Native Americans were communists then I would love to hear it.
    Communists are collectivists. However collectivists are no different to shareholders in a listed company.

    Look at the Russian revolution, that killed more than any individualistic pursuit.

    Furthermore, for individualistic people to exploit collectivistists they must form groups and are therefore collectivists. A company listed on the stockmarket is a collectivist organisation

    If you want to talk about less advanced or less powerful people and how they are exploited, then thats nothing to do with individualistic capitalism. Did Native Americans not form tribes and kill each other.. is that not expolitation.

    Take the NZ Maori for instance, a particular tribe bought a whole bunch of guns of the European immigrants got in their canoes and went and blasted another tribe.

    In essence, the development of technology allows people to exploit each other. Not whether they are individualists or collectivists.

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