Does Hell exist?

[Beorn]

I'm sorry, but your statements are non sensical. Hell isn't really a punishment because we deserve worse than hell? Just because one deserves a worse punishment than hell doesn't mean hell isn't a punishment, since the purpose of hell is specifically designed to inflict pain.

Sorry about the miscommunication. My disagreement was not with "punishment." Yes hell is a punishment. My disagreement was with "appropriate punishment." Appropriate punishment would be immediate punishment. Because of the good things that happen to bad people those people do not receive an appropriate punishment. They are recipients of grace and mercy from God.

 

[entropie]

After the white beans I had eaten last night, I did today in the morning believe that hell exists

 

[Edgar]

The bible, observation and reason.

I'd like to hear the reason side of it.

 

[Lark]

Okay.. it's important to know that my belief and my conception of God came about as I was trying to answer very personal questions. As a result, my understandings are also very personal, and maybe not terribly helpful to others.

I think essentially, I forget the word, that everything is God.. there's nothing separate from anything fundamentally. Also, though, God is more than everything we have 'access' to as people. So, Evil is equally a part of God as Good is. God is not the God of everything good, God is the God of existence which encompasses matter and other rarer forms of manifestation, like ideas, and ideals. So.. we are limited to perception of differentiations in our normal state, and God's existence extends beyond that. All that 'who created God?' jazz doesn't register with me at all, because what's important is that God 'meta-created' existance and nonexistance. This is easy to say, but there is nothing to logically discuss about it, it's a waste of time.

So what is Evil, and what is a demon? Well, Evil is actually easily explainable when you understand that we are God also. Evil is really an effect of disharmony having to do with our decisions, Good is harmony, neither of which is not God. A demon is just Evil personified. This probably can happen a lot of ways, we tend to personify things in order to interact with them. I don't rule out the idea of external manifestations of Evil, but to me.. some sort of supernatural occurance is not any different than just somebody being a bad person. And neither is some sort of supernatural good force any different than somebody being a good person.

Cheers man, that's interesting, different to what I thought you were talking about and different from what I believe.

I do think that there is reciprocity between God and his creation, its the purpose we serve, animals too, even evolution or similar processes. Although I think that's different from what you're describing here which seems more like pantheism, sorry if its not, I'm not trying to label you or anything like that.

When I was listening to some of the discoveries about dark matter on the radio today it seemed like evil, at least like the evil in The Fith Element or The Never Ending Story. In some ways its a little like the version of God in PKD's books whose consciousness IS reality and the universe, when God experiences forgetfulness reality winks out of existence. PKD manages an amazing fusion of science fiction and jewish mysticism.

 

[Beorn]

I'd like to hear the reason side of it.

Reason doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is based upon presumption. My presumptions come from observation and the Bible.

 

[Lark]

Sorry about the miscommunication. My disagreement was not with "punishment." Yes hell is a punishment. My disagreement was with "appropriate punishment." Appropriate punishment would be immediate punishment. Because of the good things that happen to bad people those people do not receive an appropriate punishment. They are recipients of grace and mercy from God.

Well that's a little like discussions I've had about God's judgement, its not simply just but is described as being seen to be just too, which means that when it appears like wicked people prosper or succeed or escape consequences it will either be seen ultimately to have been just that they did or they will be seen to be punished by God eventually rather than immediately.

 

[The Ü™]

Yes it does:

(New Jersey is just Purgatory.)

 

[Qlip]

Cheers man, that's interesting, different to what I thought you were talking about and different from what I believe.

I do think that there is reciprocity between God and his creation, its the purpose we serve, animals too, even evolution or similar processes. Although I think that's different from what you're describing here which seems more like pantheism, sorry if its not, I'm not trying to label you or anything like that.

When I was listening to some of the discoveries about dark matter on the radio today it seemed like evil, at least like the evil in The Fith Element or The Never Ending Story. In some ways its a little like the version of God in PKD's books whose consciousness IS reality and the universe, when God experiences forgetfulness reality winks out of existence. PKD manages an amazing fusion of science fiction and jewish mysticism.

Yeah, I wouldn't say it was pantheism, though the difference is probably pretty subtle. The big problem I have with your conception of the Universe is that somehow God is divorced from responsibility for Evil. This is just shirking when it comes to something that is Omnipotent and Omniscient. And we do have a connection with God, a relationship.. but I don't see how mere puppets, things that aren't also God stuff can have a real relationship with God, as in Christianity.

 

[Lark]

Yeah, I wouldn't say it was pantheism, though the difference is probably pretty subtle. The big problem I have with your conception of the Universe is that somehow God is divorced from responsibility for Evil. This is just shirking when it comes to something that is Omnipotent and Omniscient. And we do have a connection with God, a relationship.. but I don't see how mere puppets, things that aren't also God stuff can have a real relationship with God, as in Christianity.

Not puppets, the sort of reciprocity which I'm talking about is more radical than that, it corresponds to the various sayings of Jesus and the disciples along the lines of "Ye Shall be Gods", although that is different from pantheism and the "God stuff", so far as I understand this concept or ones like it that I've read about.

The thing about God and evil is interesting. My understanding of evil is that it will never surpass good because it is a corrupted version of the good or degenerate version of the good, if you know what I mean, or more appropriately perhaps what happens when the good is blocked or can not develop as it ought. So there is a kind of dichotomy but the good is what is meant and the evil is the accident or unintended, the good gone wrong. However, while there is a dichotomy there is no equality or equivalence. As simple an example as I could think of would include love vs. obsessive mania, vigilance vs. paranoia, generosity vs. neurotic needs for affection.

So evil is the creations of God fallen into degeneracy, God himself is not degenerate nor can be, he is omniscent and omnipotent but evil exists because the reciprocity between God and man has lead to his becoming less paternalistic and interventionist, its evident not just in the old and new testament but conceptions in all the world religions, it gets mistaken or misconstrued as mankind's emergence from imaginative ignorance attributing less to God as mankind has made other discoveries.

Does evil serve some Godly purpose? Well, of course, it is a challenge and spur to development within the proper channels and with the proper guidance, ie the teachings of the prophets, life and ministry of Jesus, God incarnate, etc.

 

[Edgar]

Sorry about the miscommunication. My disagreement was not with "punishment." Yes hell is a punishment. My disagreement was with "appropriate punishment." Appropriate punishment would be immediate punishment. Because of the good things that happen to bad people those people do not receive an appropriate punishment. They are recipients of grace and mercy from God.

Why is that? Why is there no immediate punishment for the wicked and no immediate reward for the rightous?

You can claim the God is graceful because he postpones the punishment, but why does he allow for the wicked to continue with their misdeeds against the innocent? Seems like the innocent are getting a raw deal here. I mean you can claim heaven will make it all worthwhile, but why does God delay the reward of heaven, and let's the innocent endure an entire lifetimes of pain? Its not like there is a Super Heaven. Heaven is heaven. Children suffer too, and some of them are too young to realize they will be rewarded in the afterlife for their current surrow. So what's the point?

Please don't say "God works in mysterious ways". I can't just take some 2000 year old book that has been translated and amended hundreds of times, and written by who-the-fuck-knows at its face value. I'd rather rely on my reason. After all, God has given me reason for a reason... and that reason wasn't to throw it out of the window every time I come across some ancient unverifiable text. That would make no sense. My own reason tells me so.

Also, the beef that I have with the various claims of what happens in the afterlife is that nobody can prove it wrong. I can claim all sorts of shit happens in the afterlife, and its not like any dead person will dispute my statements.

 

[Beorn]

Why is that? Why is there no immediate punishment for the wicked and no immediate reward for the rightous?

I don't know. But, given that I am wicked I'm glad he waits.

You can claim the God is graceful because he postpones the punishment, but why does he allow for the wicked to continue with their misdeeds against the innocent? Seems like the innocent are getting a raw deal here. I mean you can claim heaven will make it all worthwhile, but why does God delay the reward of heaven, and let's the innocent endure an entire lifetimes of pain? Its not like there is a Super Heaven. Heaven is heaven. Children suffer too, and some of them are too young to realize they will be rewarded in the afterlife for their current surrow. So what's the point?

You presume their are innocents. I do not think their are.

Moreover, I don't believe suffering is inherently bad for a person. Jesus suffered (the only to suffer completely unjustly) and his glory was magnified because of it.

Please don't say "God works in mysterious ways". I can't just take some 2000 year old book that has been translated and amended hundreds of times, and written by who-the-fuck-knows at its face value. I'd rather rely on my reason. After all, God has given me reason for a reason... and that reason wasn't to throw it out of the window every time I come across some ancient unverifiable text. That would make no sense. My own reason tells me so.

I would never say that. I do believe in mystery, but I believe there a lot more about God and his doings that can be known than most Christians would believe.

Also, the beef I have with the various claims of what happens in the afterlife is that nobody can prove it wrong. I can claim all sorts of shit happens in the afterlife, and its not like any dead person will dispute my statements.

Lol. You said "beef."

It can't be proven wrong, but it can be shown to be coherent or incoherent in accordance with other beliefs.

 

[Edgar]

You presume their are innocents. I do not think their are

I can't follow any dogma that casts doubt on the innocence of children before the age of reason.

Moreover, I don't believe suffering is inherently bad for a person. Jesus suffered (the only to suffer completely unjustly) and his glory was magnified because of it.

I don't want glory. I don't want to be crucified. And I don't want to experience all those horrible diseases that were supposedly inflicted upon Job by God to test his faith. Can't I just be left alone to live in peace with my fellow men? Is that so much to ask? Or must I jump through all those hoops for His cosmic gagreel?

It can't be proven wrong, but it can be shown to be coherent or incoherent in accordance with other beliefs.

Its hard to add any coherence to anything that can't be proven wrong... such as Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and magical frogs with funny little hats (amongst other things)

 

[Sanctus Iacobus]

I don't want glory. I don't want to be crucified. And I don't want to experience all those horrible diseases that were supposedly inflicted upon Job by God to test his faith. Can't I just be left alone to live in peace with my fellow men? Is that so much to ask? Or must I jump through all those hoops for His cosmic gagreel?

No you don't. It's already been done for you, if you trust in the life of Jesus (which, mind you, is never over, but merely not incarnate at this time). That's the entire point of Christianity: Jesus Christ, God's son and also 100% human, suffered and died so we do not have to. In fact, it is impossible to be like that. All that is required is to put your faith on Jesus (God provided) and out of a sincere rebirth of faith will come a supernatural desire to reflect Jesus, at some point even in His suffering and death.

Just because God's holiness is beyond what we can expect to achieve does not mean God's expectations of us are unachievable. God knows, as it is said, "all have sinned and fall short of the glorification of God". This is why Jesus was sent to die, so that by faith, through grace provided by God to any willing to accept it, a person can meet what is beyond what they could expect to do themselves... it is only by faith in another person: Jesus.

 

[KDude]

I don't believe it matters much. I think it is a distraction from the real point of religion.

Agreed. At least, as far as my favorite religious people go, they were all ones who set aside spiritual matters a bit, and concentrated on fixing hell on earth instead. They believed in working for human progress more than concentrating on fate and "ultimate meaning" and all that stuff. For example, Martin Luther King Jr. A devout pastor in his own right, but he rarely bothered with theological matters. His Letter from a Birmingham Jail is telling (it's addressed to other clergy.. clergy, who, on one hand, saw his work as rabble rousing, and on the other, were a bit nervous that he was pushing too much too soon.. the kind of well meaning religious folks who advised that we must work in "God's time". As if anyone knows what that is. But he would have none of it. He believed God's work happens here and now). Whether you're atheist or not, and don't believe God has anything to do with it, you'd have to be douche to not be on his side.

 

[Edgar]

No you don't. It's already been done for you, if you trust in the life of Jesus (which, mind you, is never over, but merely not incarnate at this time). That's the entire point of Christianity: Jesus Christ, God's son and also 100% human, suffered and died so we do not have to. In fact, it is impossible to be like that. All that is required is to put your faith on Jesus (God provided) and out of a sincere rebirth of faith will come a supernatural desire to reflect Jesus, at some point even in His suffering and death.

Just because God's holiness is beyond what we can expect to achieve does not mean God's expectations of us are unachievable. God knows, as it is said, "all have sinned and fall short of the glorification of God". This is why Jesus was sent to die, so that by faith, through grace provided by God to any willing to accept it, a person can meet what is beyond what they could expect to do themselves... it is only by faith in another person: Jesus.

Yeah that's awesome and everything, but people still die of horrible diseases and children still get murdered.

 

[Halla74]

Do you believe in the presence of demons, demonic things, and/or the devil?

Do you believe that hell (aka the lake of fire) exists?

Without EVIL, GOOD is meaningless.
EVIL spelled backwards is LIVE.
The road to HELL is paved with best intentions.
No good deed shall go unpunished.
All of the above statements are true.
However, I'm with Jennifer.
The true nature of evil has been defined by the actions of mankind throughout history.
I do not believe that every little thing we do is a point that somehow gets tallied toward our damnation or salvation.
That's just bullshit.
If God wants the good people of the world to walk around and let the evil, fucked up, selfish violent people of the world ruin their lives, that is a path I cannot and will not take.
I will not do others harm without provocation, but if I ever become aware that my safety or well being is at risk because of the actions of some fucked up idiot, then I am going after them head on and "neutralizing" them, and I won't lose any sleep over it.



-Alex

 

[Sniffles]

I'm so glad my involvement in this thread has been limited.

 

[KDude]

The problem with Calvinism, for me, is that it's God is more intolerant and vindictive than a spoiled 3 year old. If I can conceive of a god that's less of a bastard, then that's pretty sad. That even a wretched human such as myself actually has more patience and ideals than this primitive asshat that Calvin liked so much. The fact that I myself can do better pushes me to believe in a better god than that. It is necessary for the definition of God (to me) to be beyond my understanding. To represent some form of goodness that goes beyond condemning people for no reason and smashing shit just because he wants to. That idea of God is more about tapping into humanity's most base desires. Nothing divine.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

I don't believe in a God in general, but if I even try to humor the existence of God, I always come to this stopping point. God can be omnipotent, benevolent, or neither. He can't be both. A being with infinite and all encompassing power the chooses to create a world racked with suffering and by some peoples' telling a place like hell, simply cannot be benevolent.

It may be all very well to prove that such and such a revelation of God is consistent with reason, consistent with analogy, consistent with a thousand things; but the spirit which needs such argument is a spirit of rebellion against God.
If there be a revelation, every part of it is of authority, and must be believed. Human thought is not the arbiter of truth, but the infallible Word is the end of all strife. It is not ours to say what the truth must be, or what we think it should be, or what we would like it to be, but reverently to sit down with open ear and willing heart to receive what God has spoken.

Why would I take that leap of faith as opposed to any other? This is where the whole joke about the flying spaghetti monster came from. Since either way I have to completely suspend skepticism and critical thought and just embrace something that requires no evidence, why not worship the flying spaghetti monster as opposed to your so-called god?

We, and other sentient beings if they exist (and I believe they do), are the sole arbiters of truth. That doesn't even necessarily mean we get it right, but the point is that we are the only ones that can decide for ourselves what we take as truth and what we don't. There literally isn't any way to surrender our belief to an external force. Supposedly giving in to the infallible word of God is just another name for a specific kind of arbitration about what the truth is.

 

[KDude]

If Jesus wanted unquestioning belief and equated it with the "spirit of rebellion", he wouldn't have tolerated his own disciples (and not just the so called "Doubting Thomas", but others). Even further to the point, he wouldn't have turned his own Jewish culture on it's head, and made them question some things they themselves had taken for faith up to that point. Thousands of years of strict scriptural belief that many of them tried to live up to, and along he came, saying "Wait a minute" - and then getting killed for it. If anything, that brand of unbending fanaticism is what ironically killed Jesus in the first place.