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View Poll Results: Does Hell exist?

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  • Yes

    19 30.65%
  • No

    43 69.35%
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  1. #111
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yes indeed. What is the point of God? Such a (hu)man centric view.

    Better to ask what is the point of man?
    I'm not asking what the point of God is. I never said I was an atheist. Go argue that with someone else.

    I'm asking what the point of a specific God is who condemns the very things we're good at (in this case, questioning things). If God exists, then who else would ultimately be responsible for endowing humans with that skill to begin with?

    This is what religion has come to? There was a time when so called "pillars" of the church, like Saint Augustine, strove to balance Faith and Reason. Now we have people saying Reason is a spirit of rebellion.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yes indeed. What is the point of God? Such a (hu)man centric view.

    Better to ask what is the point of man?
    To exist.

  3. #113
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I'm not asking what the point of God is. I never said I was an atheist. Go argue that with someone else.
    I'm asking what the point of a specific God who condemns the very things we're good at (in this case, questioning things).
    That's why Jewish take on popular mythos seems a bit different from Christian. For example, the fundie view of Eden is that man fell from grace, a bad thing, and now has to be redeemed. But this contradicts with the very things that are positive in our survival as a race, as you bring up.

    I think the rabbis view the "fall" more as a positive thing and even inevitable, due to the curiosity of people.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #114
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's why Jewish take on popular mythos seems a bit different from Christian. For example, the fundie view of Eden is that man fell from grace, a bad thing, and now has to be redeemed. But this contradicts with the very things that are positive in our survival as a race, as you bring up.

    I think the rabbis view the "fall" more as a positive thing and even inevitable, due to the curiosity of people.
    Yeah.. the fall seems mostly to be seen as an unfortunate, but necessary step in creation. I like that. My Christian ex didn't, and tended to squirm when I tried to spin Eve taking a bite out of the fruit at the serpents behest as a good thing.

  5. #115
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's why Jewish take on popular mythos seems a bit different from Christian. For example, the fundie view of Eden is that man fell from grace, a bad thing, and now has to be redeemed. But this contradicts with the very things that are positive in our survival as a race, as you bring up.

    I think the rabbis view the "fall" more as a positive thing and even inevitable, due to the curiosity of people.
    I dont see humanity as the true authors in the "fall" it is the action of Satan, it is a tale of his turning away from God in all its finality, because he destroys and seeks to poison the greatest in God's creation, via man, because of the reciprocal and special relationship, to poison God's self.

    Humanity is a victim and a means to an end, this is also the important point, the greatest evil that people can do is to make others a means to their own end, to objectify and rob of any and all sanctity or individuality. As no one should be a means to anything, they are ends in themselves.

    It is Satan that is fallen, incontrovertably so, mankind was a victim, a pawn, I dont believe it was inevitable or a consequence of man's nature.

  6. #116
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Yeah.. the fall seems mostly to be seen as an unfortunate, but necessary step in creation. I like that. My Christian ex didn't, and tended to squirm when I tried to spin Eve taking a bite out of the fruit at the serpents behest as a good thing.
    I dont know how people can consider it a good thing, the advent of death, the disapperence of paradise. Its a uniquely modern thing to somehow put a positive spin on that and consider what was gained as some how preferable or equivocal to what was lost. It was a lousy trade and mankind were the losers.

    The genesis story is a metaphor anyway, a parable which is important because it can be thought or reflection provoking.

  7. #117
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont know how people can consider it a good thing, the advent of death, the disapperence of paradise. Its a uniquely modern thing to somehow put a positive spin on that and consider what was gained as some how preferable or equivocal to what was lost. It was a lousy trade and mankind were the losers.

    The genesis story is a metaphor anyway, a parable which is important because it can be thought or reflection provoking.
    If you view the Genesis story as a metaphor for self awareness, as I do, then it's a good thing, and also bad. As I said, I don't believe God is a good god in the traditional sense. To be able to see things, as separate from yourself, to have knowledge, you automatically then start making dichotomies of everything, death/life, good/evil. To be people and to be aware requires a fall. And I'm going to once again say that I really can't accept the premise that an Omnicient and Omnipotent God could ever do anything that he did not precisely mean to do.

  8. #118
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    If you view the Genesis story as a metaphor for self awareness, as I do, then it's a good thing, and also bad. As I said, I don't believe God is a good god in the traditional sense. To be able to see things, as separate from yourself, to have knowledge, you automatically then start making dichotomies of everything, death/life, good/evil. To be people and to be aware requires a fall. And I'm going to once again say that I really can't accept the premise that an Omnicient and Omnipotent God could ever do anything that he did not precisely mean to do.
    It wouldnt be my premise that an omnicient and omnipotent God would do anything that he did not precisely mean to do. Sorry if I've given that impression.

    Dichotomies are not my favourite thing, most of them are false when they are thought out or thought about, often it is a case of and/or instead of either/or. At least that's my experience.

  9. #119
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    I've been to hell once. It's a tourist trap in the Bahamas. So many bad puns and cliches there
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont see humanity as the true authors in the "fall" it is the action of Satan, it is a tale of his turning away from God in all its finality, because he destroys and seeks to poison the greatest in God's creation, via man, because of the reciprocal and special relationship, to poison God's self.
    That's one way to look at it, although as a whole the Bible still focuses primarily on "human beings" and God's interactions with them. The Satan concept doesn't comprise a lot of the Bible, the concept changes throughout scripture and isn't even handled consistently, and in the end the view seems to be that the Satan figure is destined for destruction and is not worth thinking about further. To sum it up, Satan has already lost and is not really worth the time or effort or respect to consider in great detail -- he is irrelevant.

    ... and if that's not good enough for you, just pop in a few Carmen CDs and I am sure you will be convinced.

    It is Satan that is fallen, incontrovertably so, mankind was a victim, a pawn, I dont believe it was inevitable or a consequence of man's nature.
    From the framework you have chosen to interpret the Bible in, yes, that's what you believe.

    My point was merely to say that, in my reading from different perspectives, I was kind of fascinated that the Jews -- with such close ties to Christians -- actually read the Genesis stories much differently than I had been taught within my faith.

    And who decides what the "right meaning" of such stories are? Certainly not you or me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont know how people can consider it a good thing, the advent of death, the disapperence of paradise. Its a uniquely modern thing to somehow put a positive spin on that and consider what was gained as some how preferable or equivocal to what was lost. It was a lousy trade and mankind were the losers.
    Uh... I don't think it's a "modern" thing. Although postmodernism definitely contributes to that sort of thing occurring.

    The genesis story is a metaphor anyway, a parable which is important because it can be thought or reflection provoking.
    Then why not let it provoke your thoughts and reflections a little bit, before immediately dismissing viewpoints from other prominent faiths? It sounds more like you're just trying to clinch a definitive view here. Why not reflect a little bit instead?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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