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View Poll Results: Does Hell exist?

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  • Yes

    19 30.65%
  • No

    43 69.35%
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  1. #91
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Why is that? Why is there no immediate punishment for the wicked and no immediate reward for the rightous?
    I don't know. But, given that I am wicked I'm glad he waits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    You can claim the God is graceful because he postpones the punishment, but why does he allow for the wicked to continue with their misdeeds against the innocent? Seems like the innocent are getting a raw deal here. I mean you can claim heaven will make it all worthwhile, but why does God delay the reward of heaven, and let's the innocent endure an entire lifetimes of pain? Its not like there is a Super Heaven. Heaven is heaven. Children suffer too, and some of them are too young to realize they will be rewarded in the afterlife for their current surrow. So what's the point?
    You presume their are innocents. I do not think their are.

    Moreover, I don't believe suffering is inherently bad for a person. Jesus suffered (the only to suffer completely unjustly) and his glory was magnified because of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Please don't say "God works in mysterious ways". I can't just take some 2000 year old book that has been translated and amended hundreds of times, and written by who-the-fuck-knows at its face value. I'd rather rely on my reason. After all, God has given me reason for a reason... and that reason wasn't to throw it out of the window every time I come across some ancient unverifiable text. That would make no sense. My own reason tells me so.
    I would never say that. I do believe in mystery, but I believe there a lot more about God and his doings that can be known than most Christians would believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Also, the beef I have with the various claims of what happens in the afterlife is that nobody can prove it wrong. I can claim all sorts of shit happens in the afterlife, and its not like any dead person will dispute my statements.
    Lol. You said "beef."

    It can't be proven wrong, but it can be shown to be coherent or incoherent in accordance with other beliefs.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #92
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    You presume their are innocents. I do not think their are
    I can't follow any dogma that casts doubt on the innocence of children before the age of reason.

    Moreover, I don't believe suffering is inherently bad for a person. Jesus suffered (the only to suffer completely unjustly) and his glory was magnified because of it.
    I don't want glory. I don't want to be crucified. And I don't want to experience all those horrible diseases that were supposedly inflicted upon Job by God to test his faith. Can't I just be left alone to live in peace with my fellow men? Is that so much to ask? Or must I jump through all those hoops for His cosmic gagreel?


    It can't be proven wrong, but it can be shown to be coherent or incoherent in accordance with other beliefs.
    Its hard to add any coherence to anything that can't be proven wrong... such as Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and magical frogs with funny little hats (amongst other things)
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  3. #93
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    I don't want glory. I don't want to be crucified. And I don't want to experience all those horrible diseases that were supposedly inflicted upon Job by God to test his faith. Can't I just be left alone to live in peace with my fellow men? Is that so much to ask? Or must I jump through all those hoops for His cosmic gagreel?
    No you don't. It's already been done for you, if you trust in the life of Jesus (which, mind you, is never over, but merely not incarnate at this time). That's the entire point of Christianity: Jesus Christ, God's son and also 100% human, suffered and died so we do not have to. In fact, it is impossible to be like that. All that is required is to put your faith on Jesus (God provided) and out of a sincere rebirth of faith will come a supernatural desire to reflect Jesus, at some point even in His suffering and death.

    Just because God's holiness is beyond what we can expect to achieve does not mean God's expectations of us are unachievable. God knows, as it is said, "all have sinned and fall short of the glorification of God". This is why Jesus was sent to die, so that by faith, through grace provided by God to any willing to accept it, a person can meet what is beyond what they could expect to do themselves... it is only by faith in another person: Jesus.
    Good intentions are not enough.

  4. #94
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    I don't believe it matters much. I think it is a distraction from the real point of religion.
    Agreed. At least, as far as my favorite religious people go, they were all ones who set aside spiritual matters a bit, and concentrated on fixing hell on earth instead. They believed in working for human progress more than concentrating on fate and "ultimate meaning" and all that stuff. For example, Martin Luther King Jr. A devout pastor in his own right, but he rarely bothered with theological matters. His Letter from a Birmingham Jail is telling (it's addressed to other clergy.. clergy, who, on one hand, saw his work as rabble rousing, and on the other, were a bit nervous that he was pushing too much too soon.. the kind of well meaning religious folks who advised that we must work in "God's time". As if anyone knows what that is. But he would have none of it. He believed God's work happens here and now). Whether you're atheist or not, and don't believe God has anything to do with it, you'd have to be douche to not be on his side.

  5. #95
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanctus Iacobus View Post
    No you don't. It's already been done for you, if you trust in the life of Jesus (which, mind you, is never over, but merely not incarnate at this time). That's the entire point of Christianity: Jesus Christ, God's son and also 100% human, suffered and died so we do not have to. In fact, it is impossible to be like that. All that is required is to put your faith on Jesus (God provided) and out of a sincere rebirth of faith will come a supernatural desire to reflect Jesus, at some point even in His suffering and death.

    Just because God's holiness is beyond what we can expect to achieve does not mean God's expectations of us are unachievable. God knows, as it is said, "all have sinned and fall short of the glorification of God". This is why Jesus was sent to die, so that by faith, through grace provided by God to any willing to accept it, a person can meet what is beyond what they could expect to do themselves... it is only by faith in another person: Jesus.
    Yeah that's awesome and everything, but people still die of horrible diseases and children still get murdered.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  6. #96
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Do you believe in the presence of demons, demonic things, and/or the devil?

    Do you believe that hell (aka the lake of fire) exists?
    Without EVIL, GOOD is meaningless.
    EVIL spelled backwards is LIVE.
    The road to HELL is paved with best intentions.
    No good deed shall go unpunished.
    All of the above statements are true.
    However, I'm with Jennifer.
    The true nature of evil has been defined by the actions of mankind throughout history.
    I do not believe that every little thing we do is a point that somehow gets tallied toward our damnation or salvation.
    That's just bullshit.
    If God wants the good people of the world to walk around and let the evil, fucked up, selfish violent people of the world ruin their lives, that is a path I cannot and will not take.
    I will not do others harm without provocation, but if I ever become aware that my safety or well being is at risk because of the actions of some fucked up idiot, then I am going after them head on and "neutralizing" them, and I won't lose any sleep over it.



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    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

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  7. #97
    Sniffles
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    I'm so glad my involvement in this thread has been limited.

  8. #98
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    The problem with Calvinism, for me, is that it's God is more intolerant and vindictive than a spoiled 3 year old. If I can conceive of a god that's less of a bastard, then that's pretty sad. That even a wretched human such as myself actually has more patience and ideals than this primitive asshat that Calvin liked so much. The fact that I myself can do better pushes me to believe in a better god than that. It is necessary for the definition of God (to me) to be beyond my understanding. To represent some form of goodness that goes beyond condemning people for no reason and smashing shit just because he wants to. That idea of God is more about tapping into humanity's most base desires. Nothing divine.

  9. #99
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I don't believe in a God in general, but if I even try to humor the existence of God, I always come to this stopping point. God can be omnipotent, benevolent, or neither. He can't be both. A being with infinite and all encompassing power the chooses to create a world racked with suffering and by some peoples' telling a place like hell, simply cannot be benevolent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    It may be all very well to prove that such and such a revelation of God is consistent with reason, consistent with analogy, consistent with a thousand things; but the spirit which needs such argument is a spirit of rebellion against God.
    If there be a revelation, every part of it is of authority, and must be believed. Human thought is not the arbiter of truth, but the infallible Word is the end of all strife. It is not ours to say what the truth must be, or what we think it should be, or what we would like it to be, but reverently to sit down with open ear and willing heart to receive what God has spoken.
    Why would I take that leap of faith as opposed to any other? This is where the whole joke about the flying spaghetti monster came from. Since either way I have to completely suspend skepticism and critical thought and just embrace something that requires no evidence, why not worship the flying spaghetti monster as opposed to your so-called god?

    We, and other sentient beings if they exist (and I believe they do), are the sole arbiters of truth. That doesn't even necessarily mean we get it right, but the point is that we are the only ones that can decide for ourselves what we take as truth and what we don't. There literally isn't any way to surrender our belief to an external force. Supposedly giving in to the infallible word of God is just another name for a specific kind of arbitration about what the truth is.
    Last edited by Magic Poriferan; 10-06-2011 at 10:32 PM. Reason: I have word errors so weird it makes me feel like my computer is sabotaging me.
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  10. #100
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    If Jesus wanted unquestioning belief and equated it with the "spirit of rebellion", he wouldn't have tolerated his own disciples (and not just the so called "Doubting Thomas", but others). Even further to the point, he wouldn't have turned his own Jewish culture on it's head, and made them question some things they themselves had taken for faith up to that point. Thousands of years of strict scriptural belief that many of them tried to live up to, and along he came, saying "Wait a minute" - and then getting killed for it. If anything, that brand of unbending fanaticism is what ironically killed Jesus in the first place.

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